Help with Hobbleskirt ID

[SODABOB]

Thanks, Ivy

I downloaded your photos and enhanced the ones I attached. Would you say the one I drew the lines on is exactly where the seam is offset? Another thing I noticed is what appears to be "striations." If you are not familiar with the term it refers to the horizontal lines on the upper neck that look like scratches. Even though they might actually be scratches that occurred after the bottle went into circulation, they are usually the result of a "finishing tool" that was spun around the top of the bottle to smooth things out. However, finishing tools were generally not used on machine made bottles. So, that too is a bit of a mystery. Maybe you can take a closer look at the striations/scratches and see if they go all the way around the neck. I'm not sure that will tell us anything definitive, but it might provide us with some additional clues. In the meantime, we will study the photos and get back to you later - probably tomorrow for me.

Thanks, again.

Bob

 

[Ivybriana]

Yes, the yellow lines look correct to me. Here are a few more pics: reverse side of top lip, bottom seam, and then the [very crooked] side one. Also tried to better capture the striations as mentioned above; they do in fact encircle the top of the bottle, are more pronounced in some spots than in others but can be seen all around the top.

 

[SODABOB]

Thanks again, Ivy

All I have to add at the moment is that the so-called striations on both of our bottles (I haven't received mine yet) are probably scratches or other blemishes. I'm basing this on the fact that the seams on both of our bottles can be visibly seen. I had forgotten that finishing tools generally erased the seams as it was spun around the bottle. However, I'm still trying to determine if applied lip bottles were always finished with a tool. I have some additional stuff I'm working on related to your bottle and will be back with that when I'm done. In the meantime, check out this Crown finishing tool patent from 1904. If you are not familiar with them, it has a detailed description of how they were intended to be used. If necessary, the file can be rotated and/or enlarged by using the options at the top of the file.

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/54/bc/45/07273f819dc441/US775206.pdf

I will be back just as soon as possible.

Bob

 

[Ivybriana]

Thanks again, Ivy

All I have to add at the moment is that the so-called striations on both of our bottles (I haven't received mine yet) are probably scratches or other blemishes. I'm basing this on the fact that the seams on both of our bottles can be visibly seen. I had forgotten that finishing tools generally erased the seams as it was spun around the bottle. However, I'm still trying to determine if applied lip bottles were always finished with a tool. I have some additional stuff I'm working on related to your bottle and will be back with that when I'm done. In the meantime, check out this Crown finishing tool patent from 1904. If you are not familiar with them, it has a detailed description of how they were intended to be used. If necessary, the file can be rotated and/or enlarged by using the options at the top of the file.

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/54/bc/45/07273f819dc441/US775206.pdf

I will be back just as soon as possible.

Bob

Thanks so much Bob, greatly appreciate all your assistance with this mystery!

 

[SODABOB]

I realize that Ivy's bottle is not marked with a location and that it could be from anywhere. However, we do know that it was made by the Graham Glass Co. at their plant in Evansville, Indiana. Please be reminded again that the 1916 article from Evansville that I posted earlier said something to the effect of "the trial bottles were made by Root Glass." Please bear in mind that the two newspaper articles are not intended to suggest that Ivy's bottle was issued in 1917 but are the EARLIEST ads I have been able to find which clearly indicate that hobble-skirts were being sold in Evansville in June of 1917. Prior to these ads all of the illustrated bottles were straight-sided bottles. Even though I do not currently know who made the bottles that were being sold in Evansville in 1917, we might be able to determine that if we find enough bottles that have Evansville Indiana embossed on the base - especially if they include a maker's mark and/or date code of some type.

I realize this seems to be getting more complicated by the minute, but sometimes we have to consider every possibility and examine a lot of bottles before any conclusions can be drawn. In other words, it's starting to look to me that Ivy's bottle was likely machine made sometime between 1917 and 1920.

More later.

Bob

 

[SODABOB]

Thanks, Ivy / I'm trying my best

Even though not all of the information in the attached table may be 100% accurate, it was compiled by a lot of knowledgeable people and is currently the best hobble-skirt timeline I am aware of. At some point it may be revised, but for now it's worth a look.

Bob

 

[SODABOB]

Other than the September 1916 Evansville article about the Root trial bottle (that didn't include an illustration of the bottle), this is the EARLIEST ad I have been able to find that not only illustrates the bottle, but it also refers to it as the "New Patented Bottle." I saved the entire page so everyone could see the date, etc.

Columbus, Georgia November 3, 1916

Now I'm going to look for as many bottles as I can find from Columbus, Georgia and see if they tell us anything. By the way, more often than not bottles tell their own story.

Bob

 

[SODABOB]

Just for the heck of it, here's my Root 17 bottle that I bought about ten years ago. It took me several years to find one and are considered rare. Soon after I bought it, I shared photos of it with Jeff Dean (who is the grandson of Earl Dean who is the man who designed it in 1915) and Jeff said it is highly possible that his grandfather was directly involved with making this and other Root Coca Cola bottles. He said his grandfather worked for Root Glass well into the late 1920s and early 1930s. However, the main reason I am sharing it is to show what a 1917 hobble-skirt looks like. It is embossed on the base with Scranton Pa. and is definitely machine made with no offset seams. Prior to our discovery of several references and illustrations of 1916 bottles, this example was considered a first issue bottle. As most of us know, it's hard to get good photos, especially of the small embossing on the heel. However, the bottle is sitting on my desk in front of me and I can assure you that it is embossed with ROOT 17.

This link is to a Columbus, Georgia Root 453 bottle currently on eBay - but you will have to zoom and look close for the Root 453 ...

COLUMBUS GA COCA COLA BOTTLE STRAIGHT SIDE | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for COLUMBUS GA COCA COLA BOTTLE STRAIGHT SIDE at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Bob

 

[hemihampton]

Other than the September 1916 Evansville article about the Root trial bottle (that didn't include an illustration of the bottle), this is the EARLIEST ad I have been able to find that not only illustrates the bottle, but it also refers to it as the "New Patented Bottle." I saved the entire page so everyone could see the date, etc.

Columbus, Georgia November 3, 1916

Now I'm going to look for as many bottles as I can find from Columbus, Georgia and see if they tell us anything. By the way, more often than not bottles tell their own story.

Bob

I noticed the Columbus Coca Cola & Columbus newspaper continued to advertise the Straight side Coke Bottle all through out late 1916 & all through out early 1917 up till late March. Maybe your earlier ad was in the test market trial period. maybe gone nation wide by june of 1917? LEON.

 

[SODABOB]

Leon

Thanks for pointing out that both bottle types (Straight-side and Hobbleskirt) were advertised and apparently sold in Columbus at the same time. I was aware of that but didn't think of addressing it until now. I suppose the short answer is that it took time to transition from the old bottle to the new. In other words, bottlers still had so many of the straight bottles in their inventory that it wouldn't be finically practical to just discard them. Plus, with so many bottlers wanting the new bottle, there was likely a backlog of orders for them. As far as the 1916 Columbus hobble-skirt being part of the trial period, that may have been possible, although I have been unable to find any confirmation of that being the case. I keep returning to the Morphy auction bottle that sold for $108,000. According to that information, the ONLY trial bottles were like the one that sold at the auction and had the location and patent information on the heel. They even go on to say that the rest of the trial bottles were destroyed. So, I really don't know what to make of the 1916 trial bottles, except that more searching is in order to try and figure it all out. The auction information may or may not be accurate - I really don't know. By the way, I found an earlier ad for the Columbus, Georgia hobble-skirt. This one is dated October 18, 1916. I also attached two other ads from Columbus. Notice they are from the same newspaper and only two days apart ...

Straight-side bottle - February 8, 1917
Hobble-skirt - February 11, 1917

I will be back later with some information about Coca Cola "Standardization."

Bob