My Pet Peeves with the Bottle Hobby

[NyDigger1]

ORIGINAL: AntiqueMeds

currently run the largest NYC bottle database

Do you have a web site or blog about NYC bottles?
Post something about uncommon NYC patent medicines.
I would be interested in reading it.
The number of patent medicines coming out of that city even in the 1840s/1850s was huge.
I expect there are lots that havent even been documented yet.

http://mikesbottleroom.weebly.com/

Its a website photo database []

for now im focusing on Blobs, I put the medicine pictures that I have (except pontils, only got 3 of them, will put them up in the next 10 minutes) up there but I havent put the info yet, im always expanding the website so it could take a while. Ive just finished photographing the last of my nyc bottles today so after I put those up I will start on the patents for blobs, then medicines, it just might take a while.

 

[NyDigger1]

ORIGINAL: AntiqueMeds

currently run the largest NYC bottle database

Do you have a web site or blog about NYC bottles?
Post something about uncommon NYC patent medicines.
I would be interested in reading it.
The number of patent medicines coming out of that city even in the 1840s/1850s was huge.
I expect there are lots that havent even been documented yet.

also 99% of the bottles I have up there are 1890s

 

[AntiqueMeds]

Nice website. I like that Currie bottle. I have only seen a couple and never with labels.
Nothing wrong with 1890 bottles. Some of the most interesting patent medicines were made in the 1890s especially cures.
You should add your website address to you forum signature.

 

[div2roty]

I feel like your post is somewhat directed at me because I am the most recent person to offer you NYC bottles (and three too, just like your post mentions), so I will respond.

It looks like three points in your first post. Mint is a word that should rarely, if ever, be used to describe a bottle. There is nothing wrong with a dug bottle, and some can be rinsed and appear almost mint, but a dug bottle with stain should never be described as mint.

Bottle clubs are interesting, often how the club describes itself and how individual members act are quite different. I will say that most diggers are very secretive about their spots. Keep searching and asking around and you'll find someone good to dig with. It can be very hard to break into a crew, however, it should be easier if you have a location to share with them (just make sure that they'll share one with you in return).

Finally, most people will not trust someone to value something for them and then try to buy it at the same value. For instance if someone walks into my antique store with something they want appraised and I say it is worth $100 and I'll give them $100, they will and should be skeptical. Now it is great that you have a system for buying NYC bottles, and by all means you should stick to what you think they are worth, however, not everyone has to agree with that pricing system, especially those selling.

People do tend to dismiss young people, but that is true about all walks of life, not just bottle collecting. I'm 31 and have owned my own antique store for 8 years. I probably look like I'm in my mid 20s and looked younger when I first opened the store. Certain customers and other sellers have always dismissed me, treated me poorly or ignored me. It has been extremely frustrating, but in the end it has hurt them more than me. Getting upset is fine, ranting is even fine, but I wouldn't expect it to change, just keep collecting what you want and people will soon respect that. However, "knowing" more about NYC bottles still doesn't mean people have to agree with your assessment of their bottles and sell them to you at your price.

Also, you need to remember that while ebay will let users search for completed auctions for the last few weeks, there are numerous programs that allow users to track internet sales going back years. Surprising, lots of those searches will yield results that disagree with your pricing system of NYC bottles.

 

[mtfdfire22]

GET USED TO IT! your a young digger. ive gone through the same thing for the past few years. im now 24 and i will be bold and cocky by saying if their is a privy i will find it, if their is a good bottle i know it and if someone wants to belittle me or talk down to me so be it. I have bought, sold and dug one of a kind bottles that stunned people because they had never seen one even though they have been doing this for 50 years. You must prove yourself. I think i have now but it took a while. Am i more mature than most 24 year olds? yes. Do i have knowledge and experience in certain things that most dont? yes. but i dont get a big head about it and show my anger because these people who are "talking down to you" are the same people who teach you how to locate and dig a privy and they have set the standard for all values and rarity on your bottles.

Did you decide what the price of New York bottles was going to be or was it the people collecting and selling before you who set the standard? You wont pay $100.00 for a $5.00 bottle and the reason is because someone before you were even born set a standard for MOST bottles.

i had an argument with a 60 year old gentleman at a bottle show who insisted a baltimore loop seal used the same enclosure as a blob lightning stopper beer. while some bottlers re-used loop seal bottles with lightning stoppers in them that was NOT the original stopper for the bottle. He was none to smart and set in his ways, unfortunately for him, he still believes he is right and the stupid 24 year old kid is wrong. i deal with it because i have a damn nice selection that i know almost everything about. i research maps, directories, advertisements, and bottle makers for each and every bottle that goes on my shelf.

dont get a big head yet because one of these people you think talk down to you may teach you something very valuable in the end.

 

[NyDigger1]

ORIGINAL: div2roty

I feel like your post is somewhat directed at me because I am the most recent person to offer you NYC bottles (and three too, just like your post mentions), so I will respond.

It looks like three points in your first post. Mint is a word that should rarely, if ever, be used to describe a bottle. There is nothing wrong with a dug bottle, and some can be rinsed and appear almost mint, but a dug bottle with stain should never be described as mint.

Bottle clubs are interesting, often how the club describes itself and how individual members act are quite different. I will say that most diggers are very secretive about their spots. Keep searching and asking around and you'll find someone good to dig with. It can be very hard to break into a crew, however, it should be easier if you have a location to share with them (just make sure that they'll share one with you in return).

Finally, most people will not trust someone to value something for them and then try to buy it at the same value. For instance if someone walks into my antique store with something they want appraised and I say it is worth $100 and I'll give them $100, they will and should be skeptical. Now it is great that you have a system for buying NYC bottles, and by all means you should stick to what you think they are worth, however, not everyone has to agree with that pricing system, especially those selling.

People do tend to dismiss young people, but that is true about all walks of life, not just bottle collecting. I'm 31 and have owned my own antique store for 8 years. I probably look like I'm in my mid 20s and looked younger when I first opened the store. Certain customers and other sellers have always dismissed me, treated me poorly or ignored me. It has been extremely frustrating, but in the end it has hurt them more than me. Getting upset is fine, ranting is even fine, but I wouldn't expect it to change, just keep collecting what you want and people will soon respect that. However, "knowing" more about NYC bottles still doesn't mean people have to agree with your assessment of their bottles and sell them to you at your price.

Also, you need to remember that while ebay will let users search for completed auctions for the last few weeks, there are numerous programs that allow users to track internet sales going back years. Surprising, lots of those searches will yield results that disagree with your pricing system of NYC bottles.

first off, no it is not directed towards you, ive had 3 people approach me via my website, and two people on ebay

Heres one of the things that happened, I was speaking to a woman who was listing nyc bottles. I asked a question about one and she noticed that I was the same person from the website (as she used it to add some info to her listings). So she told me she has 200 nyc blobs and that she doesnt know anything about them, to "tell her" price wise on average how much she should sell for, history of a few that she listed. I helped out, told her exactly what i listed in the Coney Island thread at the end. So she asked what bottles I was looking for, and amazingly she had one of the three bottles ive been looking for for years. I said yes, I would like to purchase it. This was her next message:

Since you want it its obviously worth more than $15, hows $25 + $8 shipping? I said no, she listed it, and never got back to me after that, never gave me or my website credit in the listing after I had asked.


One of the other things, I got a message on my website (through my youtube channel) from some 14 year old kid telling me that he has a bottle that could be rare from nyc, (Eurich and Heller, "VERY COMMON"). I told him, its a $10 bottle, had a bunch of them, sold most of them for that price.
He literally cursed me out because he paid $50 at a flea market for it. He then spammed my inbox until I had the opportunity to block him from anything further.

Thats what drives me crazy, people come to me for help and then say I dont know squat


The bottle club aspect.... Its hard to share a dump when I live in the middle of nyc and there are none left, ive got nothing to share except a dump thats 200 miles away in the middle of nowhere that no one wants to drive out to because the stuff there isnt old enough (1910s-1920s)

The ebay assessment, that is true, many listings have ended for more than what I have said. But many of those people have deep pockets and just want it really badly. for example, i had a brown skull/crossbones poison listed for $10, it ended for $45. I then listed a pair of the same bottle big/small two days later starting at $10 as well, it only sold for $21. Ebay is a good place to get a deal on a few bottles, being very selective and knowing how much is too much when bidding, but most are blown fully out of proportion (I sold two meds with heavily chipped necks and bases for $80! They arent even that rare).

 

[NyDigger1]

ORIGINAL: mtfdfire22

GET USED TO IT! your a young digger. ive gone through the same thing for the past few years. im now 24 and i will be bold and cocky by saying if their is a privy i will find it, if their is a good bottle i know it and if someone wants to belittle me or talk down to me so be it. I have bought, sold and dug one of a kind bottles that stunned people because they had never seen one even though they have been doing this for 50 years. You must prove yourself. I think i have now but it took a while. Am i more mature than most 24 year olds? yes. Do i have knowledge and experience in certain things that most dont? yes. but i dont get a big head about it and show my anger because these people who are "talking down to you" are the same people who teach you how to locate and dig a privy and they have set the standard for all values and rarity on your bottles.

Did you decide what the price of New York bottles was going to be or was it the people collecting and selling before you who set the standard? You wont pay $100.00 for a $5.00 bottle and the reason is because someone before you were even born set a standard for MOST bottles.

i had an argument with a 60 year old gentleman at a bottle show who insisted a baltimore loop seal used the same enclosure as a blob lightning stopper beer. while some bottlers re-used loop seal bottles with lightning stoppers in them that was NOT the original stopper for the bottle. He was none to smart and set in his ways, unfortunately for him, he still believes he is right and the stupid 24 year old kid is wrong. i deal with it because i have a damn nice selection that i know almost everything about. i research maps, directories, advertisements, and bottle makers for each and every bottle that goes on my shelf.

dont get a big head yet because one of these people you think talk down to you may teach you something very valuable in the end.

You are right on all of your aspects but one, pricing standards.

I use that standard as I have experienced it while buying / selling nyc bottles, and because it was passed down from two of the biggest diggers from New York State when I asked about it. Its not my standards, its theirs, and Ill take their word for it because they have been doing it for over 40 years each with great success.

 

[AntiqueMeds]

Thats what drives me crazy, people come to me for help and then say I dont know squat

welcome to the real world[]
YOu will get this when you are 52 yrs old too , get used to it.
If you get irratated by every nut out there you will go crazy before you reach 21.

I recommend reading What Do You Care What Other People Think? by Richard Feynman
He had a great attitude and was also a New Yorker...
http://www.amazon.com/What-Care-Other-People-Think/dp/0393320928

 

[tigue710]

ORIGINAL: NyDigger1

thats a little mean on your part, maybe you should have read it more clearly, "Largest NYC bottle database"

Im talking about Nyc bottles only... I know there are larger databases but mine is the largest for Nyc bottles ONLY.

I study every bottle I have, look up every bit of history I can find, and post it on there, hell I can tell you the history of almost any Nyc bottle (provided ive seen it before) on the spot. And my deal is that people tell me that I dont know anything about, NYC. There are still alot of things i dont know, and thats true, but i sure as hell know more about nyc bottles than the next guy.

And im sorry if you find taking others with you dump digging as competition. If other people consider it as competition they shouldnt post on their website: "contact us for digging / club joining info"

I was turned down by clubs that advertise on the internet to join them, simply because im too young and "inexperience" in their minds. Hell if I never go Ill never gain that experience.

You only have that digging view since you have been collecting for the past 25 years. I live in NYC, virtually every dump has been picked out, or covered over, and they wont let just anyone into a construction site for bottles, even though my dad worked in construction for 15 years, he worked on sites in the 90s that (if I was old enough and collected bottles back then) would have amounted to a huge collection.

Hell even 10 years ago you could still find decent stuff in Staten Island, northen Bronx, southern Bronx, and downtown Brooklyn, not any more unless its a privy.

You have had the experiences that I wish every day I could live, hell I have one dump thats 200 miles away that I can only go to 3-4 times a year. Put yourself in my shoes for a few minutes before you say that my heads a little big.

I stand by what I said, but I feel your pain too. Someday you will look back and say "dang my head was big", I know I do looking back at when I was 18. Its a coming of age thing we all go through. I'm not intending to be mean, Im just a little gruff. I was talking about NYC databases, I know the clubs have them and a few of the big time privy diggers do as well. These have been being put together for years and years and years. Your data base is excellent, and your love and enthusiasm of the hobby apparent, commendable, and respectable, but it takes more then 4 years to put together the most comprehensive guide on NYC bottles when others have been working on them 10 times longer. Remember that most of this stuff isnt on the internet.

I dont find taking other people digging as competition, I take a lot of people digging, but sometimes it back fires and you end up showing someone where and how you dig only to have them come in behind you and dig all your spots out, it sucks. Ive spent money, time and expend numerous resources to dig some spots and then someone just takes all that hard work from you because you took them with you. It sucks, and most diggers have been through it and are very cautious about who they take digging. Thats what I mean by paying your dues, you gotta show your not a scab, and willing to put in the work and are capable of it. I've lived in Cali three years now and still haven't been invited on a dig yet!

Im sorry to say but there is an abundance of digging to do in and around NYC, I would give a limb to live there and dig. Dont give up, there's stuff out there, I get discouraged all the time too.

As for those crazy's your talking about farther down this post you gotta ignore those people...

 

[druggistnut]

>Since you want it its obviously worth more than $15, hows $25 + $8 shipping? I said no, she listed it, and never got back to me after that,<<

I cannot begin to tell you how many bottles I have added to my collection that I KNOW I paid too much for. There is no way that I will dig every hutch or druggist bottle from Michigan.

If you have been looking for a certain bottle for "years," then you have to consider the fact that you have not seen one before, and the possibility that you will not, again. Take the time the proprietor was in business, as your #1 consideration. If he/she was in business for 5 years, odds are that you will find another one. They were only selling for one year? Perhaps they only ordered a couple gross of the bottle. You should pay what the person is asking, if haggling isn't allowed. You can always come up with money, but how about that bottle?

It took me over 10 years to earn the trust of old timers in my bottle club, to the point they would tell me about "old" dumps. There are a couple who are just opening up, years later.
Quit asking for a while. Try posting on Craigs list that you are looking for old places to dig bottles. Nic (mtfd222) has gotten some really great dig locations by doing this.

We all commend you on all the time/effort you have put in to your research and the web site.
It shows that you have a genuine interest in the HOBBY and are not self-serving. People will recognize that and will eventually come to you for advice.

Young people generally are too "energetic" for older diggers (I mean they move too much, talk too much and NOT listen enough).
Make sure you do more of the latter (listening) and you can eventually command the respect that someone like Matt (AntiqueMeds) does now, after his many years of quietly doing what he does best.
Best of luck, Michael.
I might add, think about letting people call you Mike. It doesn't sound as pretentious and comes easier to peoples lips. <smile>
Bill