New today / Cistern questions

[WindyCityBrian]

hello and greetings,

brand new forum reader and potential contributor-

I don't know when I got interested in old bottles I have some limited experience from decades ago. I had family in Saratoga and when I was about ten we used to dig a few dumps there. Later while walking home from little league in my hometown in Ohio I found an old ink bottle. I went back for weeks and later found out there was an enormous dump from the turn of the century, (just now known to me as toc.) and I found thousands of old bottles there and lots junk.Sometimes when I am back home I can walk through the area 25 years later and still find medicine ink and beer bottles. My guess is circa 1890-1910 but since I was a kid I haven't paid one bit of attention to this hobby until recently.

I live in Chicago now and occasionally I will see a hole being dug for a new condo bldg in my neighborhood. A few years ago I found a nice soda bottle with the ball stopper intact,a ginger/pottery beer bottle, and a Jerusalem Beer Blob all sitting on the fenceline after being dug out by the contractors. I keep an eye out for this after the first time I saw this happening and didn't pick up the bottles. I had gone back and so had someone else. ha .. lesson learned. Anyway I remembered digging bottles as a kid and making a nice little bit selling them to fund my teenage activities so I kept those three neat Chicago bottles.


this brings us to the current inquiry. I'm not a collector of glass but of other things.One or two for a window is enough for me. Buying and selling is just not feasible and I might have found a new source and I am interested in possibly digging ....so I am back into thinking about bottles...not to mention the first from my youth which I am certain is still plush with more modern glass but unfortunatley on public property. I still walk through though. The new source is on my property that I recently purchased in Cincinnati.

Here's what we know:


the house was built around 1880 - the neighborhood is the oldest in Cincy and predates cincy
- Tusculum to those in the know - the backyard has no grass so we dug around a little /used a metal detector & found a small number of little stuff and then found a cistern. It had the iron top (like the pictures I've seen on other threads) on it until I dug around and then removed it.There was alot of modern trash on top. It's made of brick and is around 6-8 feet wide from what I can see. Once we got through the old plaster bricks/construction debris and other junk including cat bones we are hitting ashes and that is not the most pleasant thing for us. - >we've gone two feet. we stopped.


> I can post some pics if relevent<-

here's some concerns and questions.

we have found remnants of other structures but no privy...as far as we know...but there are two pipes sticking out of the ground that might be for...methane release?---those are on the property line--- . Is the time period likely that there would be one?

About the cistern - Ash a good sign or no? it seems from the stories here that it mgiht be a good indicator. While I do know there could be nothing I am intrigued by the prospect of this site. The cistern is brick in the shape of a cone top like a beehive kinda sorta... with mortar lining and is in generally good shape. Is there any worry of collapse? how deep could is be? what other advice is relevent? what about the ash - seems like it would make a giant mess....how do you handle such a volume?

in the yard I found hundreds of square nails , a lantern wick holder with a patent date of 1863/67 in reasonably good shape and a milled weight made of brass & a crucible - these lead me to believe the area had another house. I might be wrong about that . we don't think the cistern is older than the current house. this was a working class area and the area was known for its boat building.


what should we do?


should I hire a bottle digger to clean it out or can we make an arrangement sometimes for the homeowner when granting permission? would the prospect of a privy interest a digger or does the date of the current house make it too late to be of interest?


what are the parameters for such an arrangemnt if so?

or do you say dig it myself when I have time in the spring or forgetaboutit?

brand new to the site, thank you for your advice, I will have more questions.

 

[appliedlips]

Brian,

Your site sounds like it has some potential.Do you know if this was the only house only on this lot?If so it is probably too new in Cincinnati.Alot of major cities got their sewers before smaller towns and a 1880's house may not have a privy.Even if it does it may not be worth the trouble,some pits in Cincy are the deepest anywhere sometimes 30 ft.+,which is a long way to dig for that age of trash.If you think there is a possibility the lot is older,I would be interested in locating and digging the privies.I would not do it for hire however,but for a share of the bottles and artifacts found.Good luck,Doug

 

[lexdigger]

Here's the deal on a cistern. The first thing you want to do is open up a hole big enough to dig in and try to go down next to the wall. Most of the bottles will be along the walls. Usually if we aren't getting anything good at four or five feet, we fill it in. Generally the age doesn't change much from the top to the bottom, at most ten to twenty years. So, if you're getting 1920's stuff out of the top you'll be lucky to hit toc in the bottom. If you're getting toc in the top then it should be a good one. If you want to dig it out you'll need some help. You'll want to lay out tarps for the dirt. You'll also need buckets with rope tied to them to pull the dirt out. Generally you will want to try to get it done within a day or two. The longer you leave it open is the more chance you take on it raining and making a mess. As far as it being safe, you'll have to make that call. We don't leave things hanging off the walls over our heads. We also always inspect the walls and structure for cracks or anything out of the ordinary. If I don't feel safe in a hole I fill it in. Chris

 

[WindyCityBrian]

there is evidence of another structure ..or two...the yard is small...and whether it is a barn or something else we canot tell but I can say that we have located an area map that shows houses near here in 1860 and we are trying to find more maps. hints tips and suggestions on that are big time welcome.

the area was first settled around 1780-90 and the house is near a major highway in the mid nineteenth century.

what about these two pipes sticking out of the ground? does that mean anything? they are on each side of a tree on the fenceline and no its not a maple..they do not pullout easily. nothing or something?


I might try and find when the sewer system was installed here....how to? the house is not in the downtown,its in the older area.

 

[WindyCityBrian]

thanks Chris, I've read alot ofyour posts and that makes this possible project interesting to think of...and I know many have nothing.I might have to seal this one up for a while because digging out the area around the top and taking out the bricks near the top is much more work than I can do before it gets rainy....keeping the day job in perspective etc.



and in the meantime more research and thought.



if I dig down to the brick and set a large square board over it could that help keep out water ?


ps how do you get the bricks out of the mortar? we want to salvage some for whatever...


history of the area:

http://www.columbiatusculum.org/history.aspx

http://www.columbiatusculum.org/EastEndHistory.pdf

 

[appliedlips]

Brian,

You are right about the area.The area east along the river is very old.Most of the first houses are gone now.I have done some digging along Eastern Ave. and there is definately some good digging out that way.Personally,I would give up on the cistern.If the pipes are less than a 4 inches or so in diameter in the back I doubt they went to the privy.I haven't seen any to relieve Methane.If you would like to have the privies dug,give me a hollar.I have dug hundreds of privies and I am always safe and respect property.Thanks,Doug

 

[WindyCityBrian]

Usiung the David Rumsey 1869 Harrison Atlas of Columbia available online I would guess that there was another building or house here at that time. that is if Willow Street is now Tusculum avenue....if not then I need to figure out where we are .


.I will research this a litlle more and get back to you in the future. We're going to cover the cistern and think about it in the spring I think. If 4 or 5 feet is what we need to dig to find out , we will end up doing it someday or invite someone over to help. thanks again ...


brian

 

[WindyCityBrian]

I have additional information for you doug and if you would like to contact me regarding a PM would suffice - I think I sent one yesterday but i do not see it in the sent box - there was another structure there in 1864 and if you are still interested lets talk.

or you could msg me via email - I have the crackberry - shazzamm@nyc.com

 

[WindyCityBrian]

ok I got into this hole last weekend and I can say two things - next to the cistern there was definately a structure and that may be worth exploring seperately. The cistern is full of water and that's going to be a real mess. We dug about three feet down and the bottles started pouring out in the small two by two area we broke through - we did find some things after digging through the construction debris on top that date around the late 19twenties early thirties - nothing interesting except for a porcelain thing shaped like a mug without a handle that has a coil in the bottom and a hole for a cord? ideas? however, we will dig a little further and see if the debris age gets older and will post some pics - at the very least the hole will be a great place to dump OUR trash :0 . And like before, if someone wants to come and look for a privy, ping me and the usual arrangement will suffice. There was a structure on the property in 1869 if not earlier. An overall fun project for some amateur urban archeoligists is what we're calling this dig and we hope to find something worth keeping.

 

[beendiggin]

I think it's very cool of you to offer up a dig on your property to members of this forum, especially since you're just introducing yourself. You are a generous person. Best of luck on your dig, and welcome. I live in Maine so I won't be able to make the dig! I think we all will be looking forward to your posts.