"Noble Catcher" Is this a Cyrus Noble Whiskey Bottle?

[surfaceone]

Hey Carleton,

Here's another precinct heard from.

"first off ... expert doesn't apply to me ... I have some knowledge on the late Victorian French figurals ... had enough passion to produce a website on them ... very little knowledge on American figurals & nothing on sports related figurals.

Had a look at the Noble Catcher figural ... first impression ... the basic form & detail characteristics looks more European than American ... the base & bottom look French & certainly frosted French figurals are common ... sheared finish not that common except for candy containers & lay down perfumes...." From https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/m-304119/mpage-7/tm.htm

 

[CarltonHendricks]

Thanks Ron and Surf, I believe you it could be French...exactly what the implies I'm not sure....Did whiskey companies get there bottles overseas?...was that par?....And that brings up the production procedure from order to delivery....what went on?...who were the designers of the bottles?.....are there renown names in the design field?...All the nuts and bolts of production I find facinating...

As for the silver bullet answer....It's out there somewhere hopefully....some 1890 trade publication maybe....I can see it...a feature with a photo of the Cyrus Noble display at the 1893 St Louis Exposistion...and there it'll be....my Noble Catcher....a special short run only sold at the fair!!....imported from France that is...

While we wait patiently....does anyone else have any imaginary scenarios?

 

[epackage]

Carlton I will have gone thru my bottle books by weeks end and I hope to have an answer for you....Either way good luck....Jim

 

[CarltonHendricks]

Thanks much Jim, That's great

 

[LtlBtl]

I have a few questions.
1. The story- I am having a hard time w/ the whole thing. Buying at an antique mall from a dealer who bought it on way to Cooperstown ... I'm sorry I just got distracted from my bs alarm going off, what was I saying?
I guess from trying to be scammed by so many people w/bs stories, this is seeming like one of those " It was my great great great grandmothers who never played with it and ..." . And the dealer made no claims to what it was or where it came from other than "on way to Cooperstown", correct? Meaning, he could have gotten it from some speed freak at any road stop between CA and NY and he wouldn't have been lying. You were the one to make the jump that it was from this sports collection he was selling but did not comment further on. Did the collection have similar period items? Does the dealer have a good rep and is he familiar w/a range of items? Meaning if I am looking at a collection of stuff that is predominantly from one era and there is a(presumed) much earlier and higher quality piece in it, I get alarmed.
2. Another jump to me is the connection with a generic word as noble and applying it to a company. And especially a word that is spelled the same in different languages, French and English. I am of the belief that if it was a production or presentation piece for Cyrus Noble it would say "Cyrus Noble".
3.Does it look like honest wear? Even if it were from the 1910s, there should be some base wear from being moved around. 100 years of display will show.
4. Attributing date based on players look. If item was Euro in origin and of the period, the maker would have probably only had second hand knowledge of baseball and its uniforms,equipment. It would have been from a picture most likely. So, how old was picture? And, I always look for ethnic attributes- it is easy to tell(other than just quality) when comparing Euro and Asian figures of the period as facial differences are usually present, even if destination market is same. From the same period(1890s-1920s) Shafer Vater produced many sports themed, including baseball, figural(ceramic) items that were knocked off by Japan makers and they illustarte that point well.
5. Attributing age by technique. Glass making styles/technology were a little slower in changing over in Europe. I don't see why that bottle couldn't still be being made. Slap some paint on it, put a cork in it, add a cloth hat and it looks like a Spanish wine bottle from the 70s to me.

I hope you have the "real" thing , whatever that may be.

 

[LtlBtl]

I'd like to follow up.
I don't think Carlton Hendricks' story or bottle is bs. I just wonder a bout a dealer who has to throw Cooperstown into a sale of baseball stuff if there really isn't that HOF connection.
The members and autction listing w/id of c. 1910 ,French/Euro figural cologne would be my vote if it all mattered. If that bottle was presented to me in that way, I would feel comfortable to buy it as that.
For me, it just doesn't seem to go with some the killer stuff around it in pics. I'd be keeping it, just finding a different spot!

 

[CarltonHendricks]

Jim, How's those books coming? -Carlton

 

[epackage]

Looking when I can Carlton, no luck just yet...

 

[epackage]

After going thru the issue from 1977 which chronicles the Skiinner Auction in Boston of the Largest Figural Bottle Collection I did not see your bottle nor was it described . In the article they mention the top 8 sellers, in which your's didn't appear, and they have numerous pic's and many mentions of other figurals and I do not see anything about a Noble Catcher or Pitcher,

They did mention France, Italy, England, Germany and Mexico for their many figurals in the American market with French examples being dominate. They also make mention of how the French examples more often than not have "DEPOSE" embossed which means Patented in France. Of the many examples pictured the only Sports figure was Boxer Bob Fitzsimmons, which was frosted but totally unlike your example. In fact the majority of Figural of People were examples where the whole head came off and was typically painted or it was made from porcelain.

I then went thru the Charles Gardner Sale issue from 1975 which shows many bottles, mentions many examples and has a list of "Figurals Sold" as well. There is no sign of your bottle in any way shape or form. Sorry but that's all I found so far but I do have some issues left to check and will do so in good time.

At this point I am personally thinking it's foreign but not as old as others may think....JMHO

 

[CarltonHendricks]

Wow Jim, that is fantastic, you're on top of your game, very enlightening just from the standpoint Noble Catcher wasn't in the largest figural bottle collection, on top the fact no one's seen it. When I was in that store considering buying it I googled it on my phone and got basically nothing....and that was a flag to bite the bullet and get it....The fact no one has seen it, for me, is a great thing....with respect to the patina/dirt on the surface....which is hard to convey over this thread....I've been collecting for...well, out of modesty let's just say a long time...(25 years)....and I think I can tell a little by eyeballing something...and my estimation after looking it over yesterday with a magnifying glass, is that it could be from 1880....naturally I'm just not sure...but my best guess is it could be.

By the way, with the magnifying glass, there was not one single marking....not even a number or anything. But what I did notice is the back brace appears to be holding baseball bats...if you look at the back shot you can see the ends of the handles...I didn't even notice that till yesterday.

Below a shot of the face which shows the grime in the crevasse....sure with I could upload more than one photo per post