"Noble Catcher" Is this a Cyrus Noble Whiskey Bottle?

[epackage]

ORIGINAL: CarltonHendricks

sure with I could upload more than one photo per post

The search continues, and if you use a image hosting site like Photobucket you can post a million images by using the image button like this...

 

[CarltonHendricks]

Well I thought I tried the

thing....let me try again...I took some shots in sunlight today, lets see if I can get airborn with this photo deal...

The bats I mentioned earlier...bat handle ends sticking up out a holder of sorts

OK now we're cook'n with gas!

 

[surfaceone]

Hey Carleton,

I went back to review to see if there was any clues I might have missed. I only found a particularly clueless welcome from me.

There'ya go Jordyn

Sorry about that, musta been some senior moment on my part.

From the above photo, I think I'm seeing dirt and perhaps small rust spots, which lead me to think this may be a dug bottle. This might speak to the lack of base wear that LtlBtl mentioned. That is, if it was consumed and discarded there would be little, if any base wear.

From your magnifying glass study, could you detect any signs of previous paint? That, too, would have been largely, if not totally, lost in the ground, and/or subsequent clean up.

Still looking...

 

[CarltonHendricks]

surfaceone, I stepped up the examination to a loop to look closer into the crevasses...but I could not see any residue of paint. Yes It does appear to have a few darker areas that look like it might be rust but I think it's inside the bottle. Interesting I see a few fiber strands in the dirt in the crevasses....pretty much invisible to the naked eye until using a loop....but I figure the fibers could have been from being wrapped in some kind of cloth during a contemporary time frame...although the strands look as old as the dirt...If I were to extract one of those fibers and take them to a forensic lab I wonder what they could tell me about it....That is whether it was wool or cotton or what ever...but most important if they could tell how old it was!...or maybe if it was human hair...Phew!...maybe they could read the DNA and tell the nationality of the person it was from and when they lived!?!?!...Probably $500.00 to $1000.00 of lab work though.

Also I'll mention...As I've always deducted the dirt residue in the crevasses is mainly at the highest points, the back of the neck... and the flattest points, the front of base around the shoes... which are the areas dust particles would most easily settle. Meaning the dirt in the crevasses would not be from not being cleaning thoroughly enough after being dug...but rather from decades of exposure to falling dust particles...

Another interesting aspect I noticed initially during the magnifying glass examination is the style of the belt buckle and the belt loop next to it at dead center the waist...The way all that is modeled looks very 19th century period correct and typical of baseball uniforms then...If I'm correct on that, the bottle's designer gave close atention to that detail....Which woud mean either the designer was quite familiar with baseball uniforms of the 1880 period or used a very clear photo as a model.

My good friend John Gennantonio is co author of the book "Antique Sports Uniforms & Equipment 1840-1940 - Baseball Football Basketball" I'd consider John a national authority on 19th baseball uniforms and equipment....and as I recall is particularly familiar with belts, belt buckles and shoes....I will be asking him to review this post and the photo below.

 

[CarltonHendricks]

I have three new aspects to examine on Noble Catcher. The first involves the volume of liquid the bottle is designed to hold.

1, First of all, in regards to all figural bottles not just mine...It's very interesting someone could design a figural bottle to hold a designated volume of liquid and top out a little below the cap. For instance...when a typical four sided bottle is designed...if the bottler ordered a bottle to hold a specific measurable amount of liquid...it would just be a matter of the bottle maker making the bottle a little taller of shorter to meet the order. In the case of a figural bottle...it seems to me the volume would be random subject to the artistic modeling of the bottle. I would speculate an experienced bottle maker would only be able to get close to a target volume...and the bottler would price the product/bottle of whiskey cologne, or what ever....on the volume held. In the case of figural bottles, it seems to me it would be a practice of form over function.

Now to my bottle...I'm considering filling it with water to get a measure reading....Questions: would knowing the volume supply any clue to what it was filled with?... and I assume filling it will not contaminate any evidence of it's history...correct?

2. As you can see the opening lip is oval not round....and I assume that was unintentional , perhaps shoddy workmanship by the bottle maker...But I don't know bottles...Question: Do you see many bottles like that, i.e. with a skewed opening...is this common? I've never seen a bottle opening like that...I'm sure it would affect the removal of a cork...you would not be able to work the cork out by twisting it...it would have to be pulled straight out....

Another aspect is that the surface of glass where the lip is chipped, is frosted....which indicates it was chipped by the maker...or at least prior the frosting process....Between that and the lopsided opening....those aspects of it's production would seem to indicate a lack of quality assurance by the maker....Question: Would this be typical of bottles produced in a particular period or place?...or is this lack of quality an anomaly in the bottle world collectively?

3. I sent my friend Tom Cardaropoli a link to my Noble Catcher post and got back the interesting reply below. Tom packs a remarkable generalist knowledge of Americana antiques from his thirty years in the business. He's a legendary eBay seller for the 20-50 Americana items he lists weekly with no reserve starting at $9.99
...Tom's eBay handle is walnutts

Never saw or heard of the Bottle before but my best guess is that it was made by the Cyrus Noble Whiskey Co. – today that make “collector†bottles like Jim Beam but around the turn of the 20th century I know that they bottled their whiskey in at least one figural Bottle in the shape of a six-gun (I am not sure but I think that revolver shaped bottle was frosted like yours but I am not sure if my memory of this is correct – you should be able to find an example of the gun shaped bottle and compare the surface).

Beautiful bottle in any case!!

Tom

Is anyone familiar with this revolver botttle?

 

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The gun can be seen at the top right in this old advertising piece...

 

[epackage]

...

 

[CarltonHendricks]

Jim/epackage,
Thanks for posting that sign....looks like Tom was right.....there's the revolver bottle....wow look at those bullet canisters...never seen one of those I can recall...now the question is what year is the sign from?

I've seen revolver bottles at the 49er bottle show as I gravitate toward figural things....I remember discussing a revolver bottle with a dealer but can't recall what it held...seems I've seen amber and clear ones...

http://www.sportsantiques.com/auburnbottle12_5_08.htm
I got desperate to find a photo of one and found 77 photos of the 2007 49er show I never posted on my site...way more than the 08' show I had up....so I went ahead and posted the 07' ones, see link above....I posted nice big ones this time, which you can enlarge by clicking...but anyway no revolver bottle in any the photos...I'd have thought for sure this community would post some photos of revolver bottles....

Thought I'd have gotten answers to the frosted chip and volume questions...such are the only aspects I can think to pursue...I was hoping the frosted chip would lead to a particular country or product match...and the volume would point to a particular product....I've looked for a cologne company named Noble but didn't turn up anything...What a mystery....My best guess at this point is Cyrus Noble did a short run for an exhibit at a fair or international exhibition...like the 1876 Centennial in Philiadelphia maybe...or a California Sate Fair of some kind...

I'm sensing this thread has run it's course of enthusiasm...shame since I anticipated a larger well of knowledge....and no other forum to turn to...

 

[CarltonHendricks]

I meant to post what I learned...or didn't learn....from my bud John Gennantonio on the belt aspect...didn't get much...he's like a lot of us these days....just overloaded with responsibilities...below his reply:

______________________________________________________________________________________

More responsibilities than I can handle at this time. Way past overload!
See page 24 of my book. Those are the examples of TOC belts that I have.
Please understand.
John

On Feb 25, 2012, at 4:31 PM, Carlton Hendricks wrote:
https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/m-494423/mpage-3/tm.htm
John, Can you please review the 4th post down in the link above for your opinion of the belt buckle in the photo? If you have a photo of anything similar please send it so I can post it, thanks
-Carlton
www.SportsAntiques.com

_________________________________________________________________________________

Below photos of page 24....but I needed his actual input yay or nay....I'll ring his bell again

 

[surfaceone]

Cyrus Noble Bourbon Miniature From.

"Finally I have a prototype sign that is located on the side of an old hotel/barroom/bordello in Lemoore, California. The building was built in 1902. The sign reads:

Cyrus Noble of the Three Sworn Enemies. Plus the sign was painted over but the overcoat has worn off enough to read the original sign.

Anybody want to venture a guess as to what this sign means?" From.

From.

"Cyrus Noble Etched Glass Fluted Whiskey Bottle. No chips or cracks. 11 1/2 inches tall." From.

"BLUE RIDGE
California Sherry

Volume: 2 Oz
alc/vol: 18%
Bottle by Cyrus Noble Company - San Francisco" From (a link to check.)

"1907 Cyrus Noble Whiskey SIGN" Coming to Auction.

"Circa 1910 Cyrus Noble Whiskey Mural in Portland's Old Town - Since Covered Over

Whiskey mural on the side of the Blanchet House in Portland's Old Town. Mural since covered up by billboards." From.

"The Cyrus Noble brand was originally owned by Crown Distilleries who registered it in 1878 and 1881, but Freiberg-Workum took it to Cincinnati in 1896 and registered it again in 1906.

The company used the brand names:
"Crown Cocktails", "Cyrus Noble", "Cyrus Noble", "Cyrus Noble", "Elkhorn", "Kentucky Lily Bourbon", "Lexington Club Old Bourbon", "Manhattan Club", and "Old Government Whiskey."

Business name timeline:
Crown Distilleries Co.

Address timeline:
100-102 Front (1893-1901), NE cor Mission & Beale (1902-1906), 19-29 Minna (1907-1910), NE cor Mission & Beale (1911-1919)" From.

"W. A. Lacey, a sister brand to Cyrus Noble, was made in Kentucky and distributed in the West by Lilienthal & Co from 1871-1896 when the name was changed to Crown Distilleries . After the marriage of Samuel Lilienthal to Alice Haas, the liquor operation was combined with the grocery operations of Haas Brothers.

The history of this company is detailed by The Wilsons, beginning on p. 95.

The business was started by Ernest Reuben Lilienthal, who was born in New York and trained as a lawyer. He learned the whiskey trade as an employee of Freiberg & Workum and became a salesman for them in New York.
In 1872 he moved to San Francisco and set up a wholesale operation at 223 California Street under the name Lilienthal & Co. and selling Freiberg & Workum products. The company grew rapidly to become the largest wholesaler in the west. In 1896, the liquor business was spun off from the company's other enterprises and incorporated as the Crown Distilleries Company, which operated to Prohibition.

The company used the brand names:
"Cyrus Noble", and "Cyrus Noble."

Business name timeline:
Lilienthal & Co.

Address timeline:
223 California St (1872-1881), 100-102 Front (1882-1901), NE cor Mission & Beale (1902)" From.

"The Walnut Hill brand was owned by C. H. Graves, Co., Boston, MA. The distributer in the North West and owner of the monogram was W.J. Van Schuyver who also distributed Cyrus Noble.

Van Schuyver became sole owner of the company (previously Millard & Van Schuyver) in 1877 and continued until Prohibition.

Wm J Van Schuyver, President & Wm O Van Schuyver, Secretary (1901, 1903). George A Craw is listed along with the other two in 1904 and 1905, as Vice-President. By 1906, the company is back to Wm J Van Schuyver, President & Treasurer, with Wm O Van Schuyver, Secretary

The company used the brand name: "Cyrus Noble."

Business name timeline:
Wm J Van Schuyver Co. (Inc: 1901-1915)

Address timeline:
63 Front (1880-1887), 105-107 2 nd (1889-1911), 328 Glisan (1912-1915)" From.

Hey Carleton,

Still haven't found any further leads to your "Catcher," but there's other mysteries afoot. What about the whole "of the three sworn enemies" conundrum?

I think the answer lies somewhere in the Crown Distilleries, Freiberg-Workum mists, but don't know for sure.

Great mystery, sir...