Peened out embossing

[mf150]

I'm a complete novice when it comes to this hobby/obsession. So, I have a question for you all.

I just bought a nice cobalt smooth-base soda online. The seller says that some of the embossing was peened out (namely the initials of the manufacturers/props.). Was this done to deceive collectors at a later time or was it common practice when the business changed ownership? I have sent a message to the seller asking him/her, but I'd like your input.

Any info is apreciated. Thanks.

 

[AntiqueMeds]

It was done at the time the bottle was made because of ownership change or other reasone that required embossing change. It was a common practice. Molds were expensive they would modify them and use until they wore out then update the embossing on the new mold.

 

[RED Matthews]

Well mp150 - I would have to say you got a hold of a nice collectible example of early glass making and mold maintaining. I especially have that opinion as that type of bottle life represents the type of bottlemysteries that I look for. Congratulations. RED Matthews

 

[wisodas]

I'm not sure "peened out" is the proper term. To peen means to flatten. But the lettering in a bottle mold is "cut into" the mold. Anything "cut into" a mold would have to be "filled in" in order to get rid of embossed lettering on a bottle blown in that mold. The tiny numbers used to indicate dates of manufacture were commonly filled in and recut, especially with respect to soda and beer bottle molds. And name changes or mold cutting errors were filled in, and then recut, if needed.

In some cases it it easy to see how the filling was accomplished. The remains of large letters may show up as a series of dots on the finished bottle, following the traces of the original embossed letters. These dots represent where shallow round holes were drilled in the bottle mold, and round metal plugs were tapped into the drilled holes. This method was used as early as early as 1900, and probably earlier. In newer crown top sodas the impressions of these circular plugs can be seen where a single digit has been removed and replaced in a manufacturing date.

I've seen readable filled lettering referred to as "ghost" lettering (The Red Book of fruit jars), but it is still the result of a filled mold.

"Peened" is used in Toulouse's book Bottle Makers and Their Marks, but I am still not sure that he used the term properly.

 

[mf150]

Thanks everyone for your input. I have received a response from the seller, and he said(as you all have) that the alteration happened because of a change of ownership in the soda business.

Interesting about the peening/filling distinction. I'll be sure to post a picture of this bottle once I receive it.

Thanks again!

 

[andy volkerts]

Welcome back Red, I hope everything is ok for you..........Andy

 

[surfaceone]

I'm not sure "peened out" is the proper term. To peen means to flatten. But the lettering in a bottle mold is "cut into" the mold. Anything "cut into" a mold would have to be "filled in" in order to get rid of embossed lettering on a bottle blown in that mold.

Hello Roger,

Welcome to the A-BN and thanks for making this point. I've always seen this mould modification process referred to as having letters or embossing "peened out." I can't remember seeing it otherwise described.

I don't know exactly how they did it, but I bet'cha there was a peening hammer involved in filling the mould cut letters.

There are artists in hammering, just as there are in mould cutting. One can chase, repousse, even "emboss" malleable metals with some artful hammering.

I imagine there was a round headed hammer used to fill in or flatten out the previously cut moulded lettering. Perhaps one of the members more knowledgeable than I can better describe the process.

 

[cowseatmaize]

ORIGINAL: wisodas

I'm not sure "peened out" is the proper term. To peen means to flatten. But the lettering in a bottle mold is "cut into" the mold. Anything "cut into" a mold would have to be "filled in" in order to get rid of embossed lettering on a bottle blown in that mold. The tiny numbers used to indicate dates of manufacture were commonly filled in and recut, especially with respect to soda and beer bottle molds. And name changes or mold cutting errors were filled in, and then recut, if needed.

In some cases it it easy to see how the filling was accomplished. The remains of large letters may show up as a series of dots on the finished bottle, following the traces of the original embossed letters. These dots represent where shallow round holes were drilled in the bottle mold, and round metal plugs were tapped into the drilled holes. This method was used as early as early as 1900, and probably earlier. In newer crown top sodas the impressions of these circular plugs can be seen where a single digit has been removed and replaced in a manufacturing date.

I've seen readable filled lettering referred to as "ghost" lettering (The Red Book of fruit jars), but it is still the result of a filled mold.

"Peened" is used in Toulouse's book Bottle Makers and Their Marks, but I am still not sure that he used the term properly.

Totally agree and welcome wisodas. This has been discussed in the past and as impropper a term as I think it is, it's still common enough to have acceptance. I just live with. []
Also Welcome back Red, hope your feeling up to the forum. I missed having you around.

 

[andy volkerts]

ORIGINAL: surfaceone

I'm not sure "peened out" is the proper term. To peen means to flatten. But the lettering in a bottle mold is "cut into" the mold. Anything "cut into" a mold would have to be "filled in" in order to get rid of embossed lettering on a bottle blown in that mold.

Hello Roger,

Welcome to the A-BN and thanks for making this point. I've always seen this mould modification process referred to as having letters or embossing "peened out." I can't remember seeing it otherwise described.

I don't know exactly how they did it, but I bet'cha there was a peening hammer involved in filling the mould cut letters.

There are artists in hammering, just as there are in mould cutting. One can chase, repousse, even "emboss" malleable metals with some artful hammering.

I imagine there was a round headed hammer used to fill in or flatten out the previously cut moulded lettering. Perhaps one of the members more knowledgeable than I can better describe the process.

[] My grandfather was a blacksmith, and you have hit the nail, or metal right on the head, so to speak, and sometimes a little bit of metal or a " dollop" was added into say a hole to help fill the area to be peened or filled up. then appropriate finishing methods were used to cover up the peening or not................Andy

 

[surfaceone]

This has been discussed in the past and as impropper a term as I think it is, it's still common enough to have acceptance. I just live with.

Hey Eric,

I'd surely like to read some of these past discussions if you can find the thread(s), please. I can't believe that there was not plenty of peening perpetrated on a mould rework. My mould making and reworking knowledge is skimpy at best, but I did some serious searching on this point and found bupkis.

Andy, I appreciate your vote of confidence, and would like to learn more. Who amongst us knows more and can do some 'splaining?