Agana Guam Hobbleskirt Coke

[SODAPOPBOB]

Check it out ...

http://g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=154147

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

This is from the link I posted and is a altered image (readable stenciling) of the WWII Italy picture ...

 

[Bill H]

Those are really cool reproduction crates in the photo. Mine is differently constructed, and I'll try to get a photo posted. My wife and I used a magnifying glass to look at my bottles, so here is what we found:

All 24 bottles I have are clear glass with no abrasions or scratches. I've numbered each of my bottles from 1-24, so that's the number on the left. The "observation" column denotes how sure I am of the manufacturer's mark on the bottle. ** means no doubt and * means pretty sure. I'm having a bit of trouble getting these columns to align so I apologize if it looks a little goofy. I noted on the column to the right "Yes" or "No" if the bottle base had that little dimple or dot. If the blow mold for the bottle was in three major pieces, the two sides and the bottom, I was thinking the dot in the mold for the base might help a worker align the base mold correctly in whatever hold the mold in place. Something like a bench mark. Other than that it's a mystery. I know some of these blow molds came in two pieces with the mold for the base an integral part of one of the mold sides. Anyway, here's my list. Oh, there was one outlier bottle, a 1946 one. Bottle #14. Bottle # 6 is a circle c manufacturer. Chattanooga Glass Co.



Btl # Mfg. Mark Observation Raised dot on Base





1 6N<(I)>45 ** Yes

2 4<(I)>45 * Yes

3 Only the 45 is readable Yes

4 Only the 45 is readable Yes

5 6<(I)>45 ** Yes

6 33(c inside circle) 45 ** No

The letters of the words "TRADE MARK" under the Coca Cola script on both sides of this bottle are larger letters than all other bottles. This bottle is the clearest bottle with the fewest flaws in the glass molding. Unlike the other bottles the base glass is perfectly clear.

7 Nothing is readable Yes

8 Only the <(I)>45 is readable Yes

9 8<(I)>45 * Yes

10 6<(I)>45 Unsure No

11 6N<(I)>45 * Yes

12 6<(I)>45 ** Yes

13 8<(I)>45 ** Yes

14 20<(I)>46 ** Yes

This bottle is very clear. The manufacturer's mark covers three folds of the skirt with the 20 on one fold, the <(I)>on the next fold, and the 46 on the third fold.

15 Only the 45 is readable Yes

16 1<(I)>45 Unsure Yes

17 Only the 45 is readable Yes

18 Nothing is readable Yes

19 5R<(I)>45 * Yes

20 2<(I)>45 ** Yes

21 7<(I)>45 ** Yes

22 8<(I)>45 * Yes

23 2 or 8<(I)>45 Unsure 1st number Yes

24 8N<(I)>45 ** Yes

Bill H

 

[daven2nl]

Bill H,

Thanks for the info! If you don't mind, I'd like to incorporate your data into my collection since yours are all WW2 era. What you have is very typical of what I find out here on Guam.

I suspect the smaller "TRADE MARK" embossing are on the Owens-Illinois bottles and the larger "TRADE MARK" embossing are on the Chattanooga Glass Co bottles.

The base of some of mine have the dimple, some have nothing, some have single letter codes, some have number/letter combination codes.

The 1944 bottles mostly have the PAT-D embossing... the 1945 are almost exclusively TRADE MARK only.

I have a dilemma myself. While exploring today, I came across the monster of bottle piles in the middle of the jungle. I couldn't capture all of them in one photo.

About 70% are beer bottles, 20% are Coca Cola bottles, and the rest are other types - condiment, ETC. Some canteen cups and mess tray halves thrown in for good measure. All are WW2 era - 1945. I suspect this was a GI encampment following the liberation and they took all the trash cans full of bottles and dumped them here.

The dilemma is this: How many do I get info from? They aren't the easiest to read due to the hazing, moss, ETC. Add to this the mosquitoes and sweat from the heat (upper 80's even in late December) and I lose interest after 6 or 7. I think I should shoot for 250 and call it a day... I've got data from about 160 total so far.

Oh, and you need to watch your step in the jungle too.... we have pineapples out here.... the ones that go "boom"

-Dave

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

Bill ~ Dave

Great info and pictures. Thanks.

Because 99.9% of the Owens-Illinois bottles I am aware of all use the Plant # / Symbol / Year Made marks on their bottles, I can see no logical reason why they would mark their WWII era clear glass bottles any differently. Almost without exception* every one of the 24 bottles Bill listed has a legitimate plant number on it. Now all we have to do is try and determine what the letters stand for. I continue to believe they are related to the bottling plants in some manner.

For example ...

Bottles number 9. 13. 22. from Bill's list are all marked with ... 8 <(I)> 45 ... And then for no apparent reason bottle number 24. is marked with ... 8N <(I)> 45 ... The N has to stand for something, but just what that something might be is a mystery at the moment. Not to mention the other letters from the bottles that Dave examined. ???

Regarding the exceptions ...

* On bottle number 16. you show it as ... 1 <(I)> 45 ... Being as there was no plant number 1 in 1945, is it possible the 1 is actually a 7, which would be for Alton, Illinois like bottle number 21. on your list?

* I'm glad to see a Chattanooga Glass Company bottle in the mix. This confirms that Owens-Illinois was not the only manufacturer who made the clear glass bottles.

If the following article is accurate, then it will help establish a date range for the clear glass WWII era bottles ...

http://cocacolabottleman.wordpress.com/2010/05/27/coca-cola-and-the-military/

The first bottle manufactured in 1943 was simply the PAT’D -105529 bottle in clear glass with no City/State markings. A new bottle mold could not be made quickly to allow a different style bottle for Military use only. By 1944, the new style bottle began production with the word ‘TRADEMARK’ below the Coca-Cola script. This bottle was produced until 1946.

Although the following article by Bill Lockhart and Bill Porter does not specifically mention the WWII era bottles, if you are not familiar with it yet, it is a good read with lots of helpful information regarding Hobbleskirts ...

http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/coca-cola.pdf

Lastly ...

During the course of my continuing research, I came across several references that said the bottle cap pictured below is typical of those used on Coca Cola bottles that were bottled overseas at the various portable/temporary bottling plants that were set up behind the lines in the war zones. Its the first one I have seen and need to do more research on it.

Bob

 

[daven2nl]

Bob,

I found one capped bottle in all my explorations out here. It was completely rotted away to nothing - absolutely unreadable unfortunately.

I have found several Chattanooga glass bottles throughout my explorations here. In fact, they are embossed with a larger "TRADE MARK" lettering than the Owens-Illinois bottles, so they are easy to differentiate. I have examples of both I can photograph.

According to my records, I have found only one clear PAT-D bottle from 1945. All other PAT-D clear bottles are 44, and all other 1945 clear bottles are TRADE MARK. I also found a PAT-D with only "5" to the right of the Owens-Illinois mark - no 45 - the only one like this I have ever found.

It is possible that these are outliers - errors - or could be an error on my part trying to read weak embossing off the side of a dirty, hazed bottle in low light conditions in the jungle

-Dave

 

[Bill H]

Dave & Bob,

Dave, you're more than welcome to use anything I post. As near as I can tell the smaller letter words "TRADE MARK" are the same on all the Owens-Illinois bottles, and only the larger lettered "TRADE MARK" is on the Chattanooga bottle. As you all know, and as I found out, it can be very difficult to discern the manufacturer's mark on bottles even pristine ones like I have. Obviously the reason for that has to do with the manufacturing process. Since I knew almost nothing about the making of glass, after I found this site I did a small bit of research. What I found (on the Internet of course) is that making glass is like "baking a cake." What I do know from experience is that if one doesn't follow an exact procedure for baking a cake by using precise measures of ingredients, and baking the cake at an exact temperature in a good oven, the quality of a cake can vary widely. Naturally the quality of manufacturer's marks would vary. The best video I found on YouTube for making glass bottles is this one, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVKcISj2LfA None of this information is probably new to anyone that collects bottles, but it's all new stuff to me. The amount of information about glass bottles on the Internet is absolutely staggering and beyond my ability to take in, for example, http://www.glassbottlemarks.com/bottlemarks/
I know what Guam is all about Dave. 95 degree temperature and 95% humidity, day and night. Those grenades are still capable of going off, so be very careful.

Bob, I took another close look at bottle #16 with a magnifying glass. I asked my wife to do the same thing, and then tell me what she saw. We both see a "1" We took our time and moved the bottle around to check every angle. Lighting when looking at these things makes a difference. As I noted on my list I was unsure of the numbers on the manufacturers mark on #16, so all I can tell you is what we see. 1<(I)>45. I absolutely believe you when you tell me there was no plant with a number 1, so there must be a number preceding the 1 that doesn't appear on the bottle. Just to get a comparison of what a 7 looks like I took another look at bottle #21, which has a clear 7. Bottle #16 is definitely a "1." The left side of the "1" is very close to where the line is between two raised folds of the skirt, so maybe the preceding number just got melted into the glass and can't be seen. The marks and letters and script on Bottle #16 look like they were melted a bit. I don't think there was a problem with the mold the bottle came from, but there might have been an issue with overheating. Is there a name for these "folds"?

Bill H

 

[daven2nl]

FYI, I have an Oakland, CA embossed green coke bottle from 1944. It clearly is marked 9D to the left of the OI logo. So this odd number/letter combo is not just limited to clear bottles.

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

Dave ~

A 5 by itself ( 7 <(I)> 5 ) to the right of the symbol is not that unusual on many Owens-Illinois bottles, including Coca Cola as well as other brands. Its more that just safe to assume its a 1945. Its the letters that baffle me and which are the main focus of my current research to try and determine what they might stand for. As always, the more bottles that can be examined, the more the odds work in our favor to eventually (and hopefully) make sense of things.

Bill ~

What I call "mold-melt" of the embossing is fairly common, and not just on Owens-Illinois bottles. All brands and all bottles have been subjected to it over the years, some of which are so bad that almost nothing is distinguishable. As for the solo 1, are you fairly certain its the "preceeding" number that is missing and not the "following" number that is missing? If you take another look at the chart that shows both the start and close dates for the various plants, you'll see where a missing preceeding number just doesn't work. However, if its the "following/second" number that's missing, then there are various logical options. But if there just isn't enough room to squeeze in a second number to the right of the 1, then I'm baffled.

I am familiar with both of the links you posted, and thought the following three pictures might might assist you and others to have another perspective as to what takes place during the process of a machine made bottle.

Bob

This first picture is of a typical Coca Cola hobbleskirt mold. The only thing missing is the "finish" or "lip."

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

Next is phase 1-2 and 3 of the Automatic Bottle Machine (ABM) process ...