Awesome Book!!! - Heaven is for REAL

[Plumbata]

I've long been interested in stories like this. A while back I did some research on child prodigies and was fascinated by the innate artistic abilities of Kramarik. I don't believe that she actually saw Jesus, as the images seem based off of 19th century renditions, but her abilities to express deep depth and to activate emotional centers in the minds of viewers are far superior to the artists who created the earlier images. The image is moving to me, so for a 4 year old I can imagine that the image was extremely potent. The knowing gaze of Christ in Kramarik's paintings would make him seem familiar and lifelike to just about anyone, especially an impressionable 4 year old who may have seen the common 19th century renditions.

I highly doubt that a 4 year old would be able to fully grasp the Christian concept that in order to be saved, one must believe that Christ, the son of God, died for your sins and was resurrected.

This being the case, either you don't need to believe that Christ died and was resurrected to be worthy of salvation and an eternity in heaven, or if it is a rigid prerequisite, then the 4 year old in fact did not see heaven and Jesus.

I believe that as long as you live a good life, regardless of faith or creed, that a just God would reward you just the same as a devout Christian. Many people, due to geography or social barriers, have never had the slightest exposure to Christianity. Why would they be punished for being born in a non-Christianized region?

 

[bostaurus]

Could get really deep with this discussion!
Just a couple points without writing a book...You don't have to understand the theology..atonement for sins, resurrection, etc to be saved..that will come with time and maturity. A 4 year old can see and believe in Christ without knowing it all. The thief on the cross only knew that he was dying next to the Messiah and believed.
Secondly it is the most common statement among those that are not Christian to say you can live a good life and you will be okay. The definition of good is never stated. My idea of what is to be a good person is different than yours, yours is different than the next person's. It is really just a way to be non committal to anything.

 

[Plumbata]

ORIGINAL: bostaurus

A 4 year old can see and believe in Christ without knowing it all.

There are a lot of ways one could run with this, but to take it at face value, could one say that the non-Christianized peoples who live just and moral lives also believe in Christ without knowing it? So if one lives a life which Christ would consider good, without knowing the teachings of the New Testament, would such people be saved like the 4 year old?

ORIGINAL: bostaurus

Secondly it is the most common statement among those that are not Christian to say you can live a good life and you will be okay. The definition of good is never stated. My idea of what is to be a good person is different than yours, yours is different than the next person's. It is really just a way to be non committal to anything.

I think that the summary statement that if one lives a "good" life all will be well is necessarily vague and lacking in rigid structure, because the statement is made with respect to the vast differences in beliefs and mores of the varied peoples and cultures in this world. The definition of good is inherently different from person-to-person or between cultures, so it is not an attempt to be non-committal, but rather an attempt to avoid excluding people who live and think differently from ourselves with a rigid definition of what makes up a good person. Perhaps "moral" is a better word.

 

[rockbot]

ORIGINAL: bostaurus


Secondly it is the most common statement among those that are not Christian to say you can live a good life and you will be okay. The definition of good is never stated. My idea of what is to be a good person is different than yours, yours is different than the next person's. It is really just a way to be non committal to anything.

So I go to war and kill a bunch of people? what am I?

 

[bostaurus]

You could be a soldier defending your people or another group, you could be a conscript, you could be someone that blindly follows a doctrine or leader, some would call you good and an hero, some would call you evil and a killer.

By the way Rocky...I hope the quake did not affect you guys.

 

[rockbot]

ORIGINAL: bostaurus

You could be a soldier defending your people or another group, you could be a conscript, you could be someone that blindly follows a doctrine or leader, some would call you good and an hero, some would call you evil and a killer.

By the way Rocky...I hope the quake did not affect you guys.

Being a practicing Catholic my entire life I've always been somewhat interested in this topic. I feel that God has his warriors too![]

We are doing fine. The earthquake caused no damage. Thanks for asking![]

 

[RedGinger]

Glad you are okay, Rocky. I didn't know there was a quake. I try not to get into discussions like these, but I was always interested in philosophy.

 

[Wheelah23]

I was raised a Catholic, but the incongruities of it all have turned me off. That and I just can't logically believe in something as inconcrete as Christianity. With the many thousands of religions throughout history, what are the chances you picked right? I don't believe in unbelief. I just don't know what to believe.

As for wars... "Thou Shalt Not Kill" seems pretty clear to me when it comes to rules... But I suppose some rules were meant to be broken.

 

[rockbot]

I've had my moments of uncertainty and doubt. My entire life's work resolves around science and math and it can explain most everything in the universe. I embrace Evolution as I see it first had but mostly through adaptation. Hawaii's plants and animals are a classic example. Once an underwater volcano and now a group of islands with species found no where else in the world. Everything had to have come from somewhere else at some point in time. The plants and animals adapted to their new environment and formed very distinct species.

The other side of me appreciates the concept of a grand creator that set the ball in motion. Faith is a powerful tool that can and has been exploited but it is undeniable.
When I see the beauty of all that is good I know their is a God.
When I see the ugliness of hate I see all that is man.

 

[WonGan]

ORIGINAL: Wheelah23

I was raised a Catholic, but the incongruities of it all have turned me off. That and I just can't logically believe in something as inconcrete as Christianity. With the many thousands of religions throughout history, what are the chances you picked right? I don't believe in unbelief. I just don't know what to believe.

As for wars... "Thou Shalt Not Kill" seems pretty clear to me when it comes to rules... But I suppose some rules were meant to be broken.

Very good points all around. I am not rigid in my belief and for awhile I was like you Wheelah,I didnt know what to believe.For the most part I try to be as good to others as I can,the "golden rule",although I only have two cheeks to turn, to me enough is enough after awhile.

As far as "Thou Shalt Not Kill",I read somewhere it means more like "Thy Shalt Not Murder",if translated right.Much like many people think money is the root of all evil when it is actually the LOVE of money is the root of all evil.I think the specific of that is if it was done,premeditated,as a personal first strike or revenge it is wrong but as a defense,it is justified.There is a big difference from just wantonly killing and killing in defense.Killing in defense is not murder.Many battles could be called premeditated but I feel much rests on the shoulders of the leaders.Most of our wars were to stifle a viable threat.If enough good men do nothing,evil will surely win.I think the Iraq and Afghanistan wars were unnecessary but I find not fault with our soldiers for doing their job,only in the leaders revenge.The cause was not just.I wonder how many people know that Bin Laden was a welcome friend of the U.S. government at one time?There are fine lines to this deep subject that I could go on and on about,which I wont, as well as religious beliefs. In my mind to be a good person is not enough.We are obligated to help and love each other.The whole world will probably never get on the same page and until we do,we will always be at unrest with each other.

Jim,yes I remember Lobey.I have been here under two other names in the past.I am surprised you didnt remember me as Wangan instead of Wongan because it was not very long ago and I had everything erased.I didnt like being called Wang for short so I changed it.I guess it was too much for someone to add two letters.[8|]Then my computer went belly up and when I got a new one for Christmas I came back.

Stephen (Plumbata),if you could tell me who the 19th century artist Kramaricks paintings liken to or where I could find them I would like to see them.Her rendition is the only kind of that particular type I have ever seen and I would like to compare them myself.Thank you for any help you can give me about this.

All in all this has been a good mature discussion without anyone flying off the handle.I really think this was an interesting book and like I said earlier much of this story and Kramariks paintings can be seen on Youtube.