Real or fake? Sunburst flask in bright apple green

[GuntherHess]

a discussion of the ethics of listing things deceptively.

I would agree that is the main value in a thread like this. Not to beat on any particular seller. As I said i dont believe this seller intentionally tried to decieve anyone. I also dont think that mentioned glass auction site realizes they are selling fakes/repros.

For me the classic is the people who list Burnett's Cocoaine bottles and dont mention it is a hair product or they falsely relate it to cocaine. Its always tempting since you know you might get 2 or 3 times what its worth from the druggie collectors.
Another one is the Mason jar with the "rare" 13 on the bottom myth.
I also have seen several people trying to pass off british inkwells as american civil war and british medicines as american.

The only real defense is knowledge of what you are collecting.

 

[Plumbata]

Since my bladder is totally empty now, i'd like to get back in line with the general topic of the thread and show some examples from eBay of legitimate, grey area, and downright dishonest bottle listings. I am not sure about all of them so I would like some feedback, but in general I think i'm on the right track. Others, please feel free to add to the list, and let me know if i am wrong about any of this stuff.


Gunther's pet peeve: Burnetts "Cocaine" listing;
http://cgi.ebay.com/BURNETTS-COCAINE-BOTTLE_W0QQitemZ160354984312QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2555e6e178&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Misleading inclusion of "Heroin" with a Shiloh's bottle from the "1880s" even though heroin wouldn't be (re)discovered and marketed until 1897 or 1898 or so:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1880s-Shilohs-Consumption-Cure-Heroin-Medicine-Bottle_W0QQitemZ280383414723QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item41482761c3&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

My biggest concern regarding modern/fake bottles on eBay. In addition to NOS labels slapped on worthless slicks, as linked to further down, This guy potteryman_1957 has probably sold dozens of these sets by now, at exorbitant prices considering how they are brand-new bottles. I'd be willing to bet that he contracted with a chinese glass company to make 100 sets of this crap for super cheap:
http://cgi.ebay.com/6-1920s-CHEMIST-BOTTLES-COCAIN-3-MORPHINE-AND-2-CODEINE_W0QQitemZ140341799040QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item20ad05e880&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Faked cocaine jar from potteryman:

http://cgi.ebay.com/COCAINE-HYDROCHLOR-GLASS-TOP-APOTHECARY-BOTTLE_W0QQitemZ140338838740QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item20acd8bcd4&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Totally fake cocaine listing:
http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-DRUGGIST-COCAINE-HYROCHLORIDE-GLASS-BOTTLE_W0QQitemZ270440643659QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ef784bc4b&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Cobaltmoon's upstanding and honest listing:
http://cgi.ebay.com/OLD-ANTIQUE-COBALT-BLUE-MEDICINE-BOTTLE-OPIUM-PAREGORIC_W0QQitemZ180396894290QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2a007e2852&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

baxterco!'s honest Heroin/Coca Leaves/etc. reproduction listings:
http://cgi.ebay.com/HEROIN-VESSEL-BOTTLE-w-Nickle-Plated-Cap-POISON_W0QQitemZ110429234735QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item19b618662f&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110406916018

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110398977622

Granny Fark's "honest" Excogitated labels ():
http://cgi.ebay.com/1800s-EMBOSSED-DRUG-BOTTLE-CANNABIS-Marijuana-empty_W0QQitemZ330355691460QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4ceabbcfc4&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330346297984 the word choice is sneaky, but the items are what they are claimed to be.

Presumably real listings:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-Paregoric-Bottle-J-T-Hogg-Nice-Label-Corked_W0QQitemZ200377238144QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2ea76a0280&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

http://cgi.ebay.com/Heroin-Schieffelin-Co-NY_W0QQitemZ320415670770QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4a9a4321f2&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-medicine-Bottle-brown-Cannabis-Indica_W0QQitemZ120461720201QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1c0c13fa89&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

http://cgi.ebay.com/PAREGORIC-Elba-Alabama-DRUG-CO-Rexall-Tincture-of-OPIUM_W0QQitemZ160358168047QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item25561775ef&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

http://cgi.ebay.com/Early-Cholera-Diarrhoea-Remedy-Bottle-Label-Opium_W0QQitemZ220471097790QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item335519f9be&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

http://cgi.ebay.com/BABYS-SOOTHING-SYRUP-OPIUM-BOTTLE-w-SLEEVE-1800s_W0QQitemZ230369264286QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item35a314029e&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

http://cgi.ebay.com/BABYS-SOOTHING-SYRUP-OPIUM-BOTTLE-w-SLEEVE-1800s_W0QQitemZ230369264286QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item35a314029e&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

http://cgi.ebay.com/THE-G-F-HARVEY-COMPANY-OPIUM-CONTENTS-NEAR-MINT_W0QQitemZ260463625430QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ca4d784d6&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

http://cgi.ebay.com/apothecary-amber-medicine-bottle-label-opium-morphine_W0QQitemZ270442075542QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ef79a9596&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-MINT-LABEL-Mboss-FRASER-CHOLERA-Tabs-OPIUM-POISON_W0QQitemZ120458940777QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1c0be99169&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

http://cgi.ebay.com/6-EMPTY-MORPHINE-BOTTLES-WITH-LABELS_W0QQitemZ140342162381QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item20ad0b73cd&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 (from potteryman, but these look real to me)

http://cgi.ebay.com/TINY-MORPHINE-POISON-BOTTLE-DETROIT_W0QQitemZ190328869135QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2c507c110f&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 (Looks real and it sold for cheap!)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-LAUDANUM-POISON-BOTTLE_W0QQitemZ180398253735QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2a0092e6a7&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14


Dubious or presumably faked items, gimme your opinions:

http://cgi.ebay.com/LOT-OF-3-19TH-CEN-OPIUM-PHARMACY-BOTTLE-HAND-PAINT_W0QQitemZ170372864116QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item27ab039874&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 I dunno about these guys, could go either way.

http://cgi.ebay.com/LAVERACK-CHEMIST-MALTON-CHLORODYNE-BOTTLE-PHARMACY_W0QQitemZ140342141787QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Collectables_Scientific_MJ?hash=item20ad0b235b&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177 Label was pasted on in recent times.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Painted-Label-Apothecary-Bottle-Extr-Opii-Opium_W0QQitemZ220471098923QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item335519fe2b&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

http://cgi.ebay.com/CODEINE-AND-OPIUM-MEDICINE-PHARMACY-BOTTLES-WITH-LABELS_W0QQitemZ140340833194QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item20acf72baa&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 (Totally obvious fakes)

http://cgi.ebay.com/CODEINE-AND-OPIUM-MEDICINE-PHARMACY-BOTTLES-WITH-LABELS_W0QQitemZ130324351424QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1e57efc9c0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

http://cgi.ebay.com/NICE-antique-OPIUM-botte-labeled-embossed-BUTTE-MONTANA_W0QQitemZ220433513975QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3352dc7df7&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116 (Label matches the embossing, but the label looks too perfect and the bottle looks too clean.)

http://cgi.ebay.com/EARLY-CHICAGO-BED-BUG-POISON-BOTTLE_W0QQitemZ380108033891QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5880344f63&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14

http://cgi.ebay.com/LAUDANUM-OPIUM-POISON-LABELED-ST-PAUL-BOTTLE_W0QQitemZ230370501737QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item35a326e469&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14 (label and contents look real, but I don't like the font used in the label)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-PAREGORIC-SYR-SQUILLS-MEDICINE-GLASS-BOTTLE_W0QQitemZ310162664559QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item483722ac6f&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-PAREGORIC-MEDICINE-BOTTLE-NO-CRACKS_W0QQitemZ380137888646QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5881fbdb86&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116


Fake apothecary jars:

http://cgi.ebay.com/OLD-OPIUM-PULVERATUM-NARCOSIS-PHARMACY-GLASS-BOTTLE_W0QQitemZ180151176720QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item29f1d8ce10&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-OPIUM-PULVERATUM-SMALL-PHARMACEUTICAL-BOTTLE_W0QQitemZ180170572379QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item29f300c25b&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

http://cgi.ebay.com/1920-Chemist-Drug-Cocaine-Morphine-Bottle-Jar-Medicine_W0QQitemZ260467900073QQcmdZViewItemQQptZFolk_Art?hash=item3ca518bea9&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14



I have a feeling that this could be turned into an informative thread in a different forum category, where people can post the suspicious items they see for sale,or post the scams that they might see going on, for others to evaluate and/or watch out for. I really want to know about all the small controlled substance apothecary type jars that look brand-new. perhaps they are legitimate bottles that are still used in other parts of the world? I reanny would like some insight into this.

 

[Wilkie]

The first one you listed probably isn't meant to be deceptive. I know many collectors that think this bottle sais cocaine, their mind just doesn't look at that word and interpret it any other way. I contacted the seller and told her the following:

"If you take a closer look at the embossing, you will
notice that it is actually "Cocoaine" not Cocaine.
This bottle was a hair product and the Coco part is
from Coconut because it contained coconut oil."

 

[GuntherHess]

In the case of that Cocoaine listing my guess is that is just a seller who doesnt know what they are selling and read the embossing wrong as Wilkie said.
If I remember right Cocoaine was made from Cocao nut oil (what they make chocolate from) rather than coconut oil.

The Grannie Fark fakes are an abomination. Crap like that will be bouncing in and out of collections for years until someone takes a sledge hammer to them.

The 20th century labelled opiate bottles can be very tough to authenticate. I assume most labelled meds to be guilty until proven innocent. Some fakes you can spot in a second, others are tough.

 

[amblypygi]

ORIGINAL: GuntherHess

...The Grannie Fark fakes are an abomination. ...

C'mon Matt, they're not fakes; they're excogitations!

 

[GuntherHess]

I hope when they sell them they get paid in excogitated money.

 

[Wilkie]

If I remember right Cocoaine was made from Cocao nut oil (what they make chocolate from) rather than coconut oil.

You are right, Cocao Nut. My mistake.

 

[pyshodoodle]

I really think it's coconut, not cocao. They still sell coconut oil(looks like conditioner) for your hair. As much as I like chocolate, I never heard of using any form of it in your hair.

Kate

 

[pyshodoodle]

Maybe I should google before I type. I found cocao for the hair also.

 

[Plumbata]

ORIGINAL: GuntherHess

I hope when they sell them they get paid in excogitated money.

Hahahaha! []

When I first saw those auctions a while ago, I had never seen the word "Excogitated" before, so i had to remember my Latin classes in order to decipher the meaning. I would imagine that most potential bidders just gloss right over the word and assume that they are real. I gotta give them some points for creativity though. I'd say that the Baxterco!'s auctions are slightly more upfront than the fark auctions but maybe that's just me. They still get people who think they are original though, people who adhere to the "a picture is worth a thousand words" belief and neglect to read the words that actually go with it.

I'd like you folk to add to this list of misrepresented/fake/decietful bottle listings if you can and i'll probably start a new thread somewhere. I have a feeling that it will help newbies like me stear clear of bad situations, and ensure that the hobby remains respectable. If a catalogue of dishonest listings is accumulated it would really help with identifying similar fakes.