Vernors Ginger Ale 150th B-Day

[VernorsGuy]

One more piece of information about the origin of Vernor's.

I saw a reference to an article in the September 10, 1919 Detroit Journal (I don't have the article) that said "Druggist Vernor often thought of dropping the soft drink sideline because it took up too much room and required so much attention that the prescription business fell off." I don't know if the author is quoting the Journal article or not, but they also say "In the first drug store of James Vernor Sr., on Woodward at Clifford, was a gooseneck and a regular soda fountain. From the soda fountain flower carbonated water for making plain sodas; from the gooseneck came ginger ale of a peculiarly seductive vintage. The gooseneck, designed by Mr. Vernor, was a pip in the form of an inverted U with a dispenser faucet in the center."

So - what if James Vernor got rid of his Arctic Soda Fountain because it took up too much room? What if he designed his own gooseneck dispenser to meet his need for space? What if he didn't advertise his ginger ale because it was disrupting his prescription business even without advertising?

Yes, many "what ifs". However, let's remember that he wasn't just another druggist. He was Michigan's first registered pharmacist. He created the Michigan pharmaceutical Association and served on the Board. He took the pharmacy part of his business very seriously.

 

[SODABOB]

Bob or others with your amazing resources-

Do you have any dates or information on C.R. Holman? This Vernor's seltzer/syphon says "Vernor's Ginger Ale sold by C.R. Holman".

Not even sure if this is Detroit or somewhere else.

Syphons in this style began in 1830 - but never changed much. Maybe Holman's era will help us date Vernor's.

View attachment 174648

Keith

I'm not sure the word "amazing" applies here because I conduced an exhaustive search but could not find a single thing that connects a C.R. Holman with Vernor's Ginger Ale. I found at least fifteen different C.R. Holman's in as many different states from the mid 1800s to the early 1900s, but none of them had anything to do with bottling, drug stores, grocery stores, etc., or merchandising of any type. I also looked for other seltzer bottles with Vernor's name on it but couldn't find one of those, either. Which brings me to the following questions I'd like to ask about the bottle ...

(Assuming you own it)

1. Does it have any type of makers mark or any embossed numbers/letters on it, especially on the heel and/or base?

2. Does it have the original spout/dispensing fixture? (I can see the glass straw in your picture). Often times those dispensing fixtures will have a manufacturer's name and/or location on it.

 

[SODABOB]

Speaking of "glass," I came across the following that I thought was kinda interesting ...

This newspaper snippet is from the Detroit Free Press and is dated June 17, 1927. Its one of a series of articles the newspaper used to run about what happened on a particular day in the past. In this case, the particular day it refers to is June 17, 1877, which is exactly 50 years to the day when the 1927 article was published. Because of the way its worded, I'm assuming it refers to actual articles the Detroit Free Press published and is sort of like a "This day in history" column.

Anyway, notice it says ...

"James Vernor is putting in a glass front to his drug store at 235 Woodward avenue."

( I looked for the original 1877 article but have not been able to find it - at least not yet)



Take a close look at the glass front in this early picture (exact date unknown to me but often described as circa 1870) and notice the windows appear to be in segments ...



Now take a close look at the glass front in this next picture (which I also do not know the exact date for) and compare it to the windows in the last picture. Notice they are no longer segmented but are full panes of glass ...



When you take into account what is says in the newspaper article and compare the pictures, it leads me to suspect the last picture was taken sometime after June 17, 1877, which might help to narrow down the date a little more, such as "circa 1877" (at the earliest).

 

[SODABOB]

One more piece of information about the origin of Vernor's.

I saw a reference to an article in the September 10, 1919 Detroit Journal (I don't have the article) that said "Druggist Vernor often thought of dropping the soft drink sideline because it took up too much room and required so much attention that the prescription business fell off." I don't know if the author is quoting the Journal article or not, but they also say "In the first drug store of James Vernor Sr., on Woodward at Clifford, was a gooseneck and a regular soda fountain. From the soda fountain flower carbonated water for making plain sodas; from the gooseneck came ginger ale of a peculiarly seductive vintage. The gooseneck, designed by Mr. Vernor, was a pip in the form of an inverted U with a dispenser faucet in the center."

So - what if James Vernor got rid of his Arctic Soda Fountain because it took up too much room? What if he designed his own gooseneck dispenser to meet his need for space? What if he didn't advertise his ginger ale because it was disrupting his prescription business even without advertising?

Yes, many "what ifs". However, let's remember that he wasn't just another druggist. He was Michigan's first registered pharmacist. He created the Michigan pharmaceutical Association and served on the Board. He took the pharmacy part of his business very seriously.

Keith

Here's pretty much the same information from a periodical called ...

Bulletin of Pharmacy ~ Volume XXXIII ~ January to December, 1919 ~ E.G. Swift, Publisher

https://books.google.com/books?id=I...v=onepage&q=Vernor gooseneck fountain&f=false

(I wish I knew how to print-out these types of files but haven't figured out how to do it, or if its even possible)

 

[VernorsGuy]

I do own the seltzer and will take a look at it this evening.

Regarding the "quotes" in my recent post (#341), it looks like it's actually a second or third hand quote from the article posted in #44, which is the Bulletin of Pharmacy from 1919. If you look at that article, it's a direct quote from James Vernor 1 that the soda fountain took up too much room. But, he stops short of saying he got rid of it. "I was on the point of throwing the fountain out" is the actual Vernor quote. So, sounds like he didn't.

 

[SODABOB]

P.S.

We discussed that 1919 article earlier in this thread, which I personally discounted because of the 1919 date and the possibility it might have been where some of what I consider misinformation originated, not to mention is says 1868 and not 1866, which I find kind of strange if we are to accept it as being 100% accurate.

 

[SODABOB]

I do own the seltzer and will take a look at it this evening.

Thanks.

If it has any marks, it could be easy-smeasy to date. By the way, do you think because Vernor's is etched in block letters and not in script that that has any connection to when it was made?

 

[VernorsGuy]

Yes, the block lettering was 1800's and early 1900's. Once they went to the script lettering they used it for a very long time. But, even with block lettering, if the seltzer dates after 1880 it doesn't help the argument.

 

[VernorsGuy]

Hopefully these photos will help. Here is the bottom of the Vernor's by Holman seltzer:



Those are the only markings. No markings on the spicket.



I also have have this one - sorry for driving all you bottle collectors crazy with this stuff - this is one of my prize pieces:



No manufacturer markings at all. The spicket says "Vernor Detroit Mich". Here are more photos attached. Any help with dates is very much appreciated.

 

[VernorsGuy]

Totally unrelated to previous post. But, as long as I had my display case all torn apart to grab the seltzers, thought I should grab this photo. Two different very early paper labels.