911-------- where were you?

[epackage]

ORIGINAL: Plumbata

It's like "Remember the Alamo" or "Remember the Maine". They are simple, memorable slogans used to coalesce and unify a nation's people under a cause; ostensibly for justice, but in reality it serves to focus and direct collective greed and bloodlust against a common enemy. It's a "tit for tat" justification at best. Mexicans have land we want? Make them seem evil and take it from them! Spain supposedly blew up the Maine? Well let's go kill them and take over a bunch of lucrative territories! Praise God and his one true nation and system of government!

And in trampling upon the rights of sovereign people and nations, we collectively feel patriotic and morally justified! How wonderfully convenient! []

A small handful of extremists kill 4,000 US Citizens in 2001? Well let's go start calling French Fries "Freedom" fries, let our idiot rednecks commit hate crimes against peaceful Muslims and Sikhs, and go invade several sovereign nations; carpet-bombing them and killing many tens of thousands of innocent civilians in righteous holy retribution. Oh, and profit immensely from appropriating their resources, impose our foreign mindset and political system upon their traumatized and bewildered surviving peoples, and convince ourselves that everything we did was not only good for them, but downright immune from criticism because GOD IS ON OUR SIDE! []

Sure Rick, we can say that they didn't leave a mark on this nation, but we sure as hell have left behind some gigantic craters and chasms in several other nations. But we are the USA after all, and inherent to the nature of being the most powerful nation on earth we enjoy the distinction of being incapable of doing any wrong. Everyone who disagrees is a heathen and vile enemy who must be obliterated.

Don't get me wrong; I love the USA, our enlightened founders and the freedoms we enjoy, but neither we, those in power, nor the world at large are constructed perfectly. No sense in pretending otherwise.

+1

 

[Plumbata]

Well thanks folk, glad that resonates with at least a few people.

I'm really not trying to get in any arguments or heated discussions here; it's just that reading all the comments here made me want to rant a little. To all of you who have served or are serving I am honestly very appreciative. I'd imagine that those who set out to serve this country (rather then be served by the country []) do so with pure, good, and honorable reasons. I do not have so much faith in the idea that heavy-handed and unbalanced retaliation is morally justifiable (or even effective), however. "Eye for an eye" is fine, but if you chop off their head instead, the hydra of discontent and righteous anger will sprout many new ones. It's a can of worms that will never be fully resolved in the manners thus far attempted.

I feel the pain that we as Americans share when our fellow citizens are mistreated or murdered, but I also feel the same way about everyone else in the world, whether or not it is politically correct within the American sociopolitical framework to actually care about them. It's not just unfair to rate our value as human beings higher than those who are different; it is inherently ignorant and wrong. Something about the black/white, dogmatic, and unthinking "America is #1!" (Americans are better than everyone else) nonsense disturbs me to the core. There is much good we can share with the world, but there is a hell of a lot we can learn and improve upon as well.

I dunno if Charlie's "busy being civilized and prosperous" and other thoughtful sentiments are understood on this end as he intended, but I agree that we should try to be a beacon of enlightenment and tolerance, and personally feel that we should "Put America First" rather than meddle so much in the world. It is simplistic and idealistic but I'd rather see the bulk of our military forces here at home getting paid to carry out improvements to our infrastructure that the DOT can't afford, for example, then have them "accomplish" goals around the world that are far more mercurial and ambiguous in terms of discernible benefit to the people of the USA as a whole. I've had several friends join the Army/Marines, and they get sent to Germany, Japan, etc, and when they get back and I ask what they did over there their replies involve sexual escapades with the locals, heavy drinking, getting paid to drive/ride "big boy toys", and generally getting pampered with housing aid and whatnot. I mean seriously, where's the beef? [] I guess 1 friend who is a career Marine is being useful and productive now, but certainly not all enlisted are in it for life.

The Western Roman empire collapsed for manifold reasons, but they included a debasement/devaluation of currency, over-extension of the military all over the frontiers, lack of economic productivity due to complacency, decay of infrastructure/institutions, and other factors which parallel what seems to be going on today. It is a simplistic rundown but I'll be damned if it doesn't apply. I get the sense that the USA is getting spread rather thin, and superficial concerns like "more Jobs!" or the utter extirpation of Islamic extremists from the nooks and crannies of the world will do little to save us in the long term unless deep and fundamental internal changes for the better are made. One look at the average American though, and all I can think is "Yeah... fat chance." []

 

[druggistnut]

I had NOT seen that, Surf. Thanks for including it. We've all heard the old adage about the apple and the tree...
I see that the Yemeni govt has arrested four in the death of our four Americans. They need to keep on going. Take them in a helicopter 500 miles out in the middle of the sea and airdrop them from 1000 feet. No cellphone cameras, no video equipment allowed.
Bill

 

[druggistnut]

>>sorry they are too busy writing tell all books<<

The guy is a civilian now, and can write whatever he wants. He served his time and someone else stepped in to his shoes. Just like the two guys who died with the Ambassador, former Seals.
Bill

 

[surfaceone]

A small handful of extremists kill 4,000 US Citizens in 2001? Well let's go start calling French Fries "Freedom" fries, let our idiot rednecks commit hate crimes against peaceful Muslims and Sikhs, and go invade several sovereign nations; carpet-bombing them and killing many tens of thousands of innocent civilians in righteous holy retribution. Oh, and profit immensely from appropriating their resources, impose our foreign mindset and political system upon their traumatized and bewildered surviving peoples, and convince ourselves that everything we did was not only good for them, but downright immune from criticism because GOD IS ON OUR SIDE! []

Hey Plumb,

I'm not drinking the "small handful of extremists" Koolaid that the Obamaites are pushing. Not saying you're a dreaded Obamaite, either.

Yesterday I read an AP article that ran on 9/11 about the lesser number of 9/11 Memorial services that were to be held on tuesday's 11th anniversary, and the diminished attendance at same.

We forget the lessons of 9/11 at our extreme peril.

This article was prior to the assassination of Ambassador Stevens in Benghazi, and the siege, and flag burning in Cairo.

Also before the charm offensive that is taking place through much of North Africa & the Middle East.

US Embassy, Tunisia

US Embassy, Yemen

German Embassy, Sudan

This is war, Stephen. Make no mistake about it. It's not the "war" of my youth, but it is of yours. It's not a war against a nation or two either.

Say. I know you were likely too young to remember the Highway of Death in Kuwait.

Pretty much convinced the Kuwaitis they were at war, and they better call someone for help, FAST.

Who was called, again? That's right, it was the good old US of A.

I object to the following, "Oh, and profit immensely from appropriating their resources, impose our foreign mindset and political system upon their traumatized and bewildered surviving peoples..."

Please do show and tell me of these "appropriated resources," who did the appropriating, and where those resources are now? The poor "traumatized and bewildered" eh?

Here's a few Iraqi guys, looking none too bewildered. Scripted, supplied with props, and told what to do perhaps. Have you noticed any of these signs?

There's individuals and groups at work in those regions that we know precious little about. I do not think them bewildered, nor friendly.

But then, I'd find time to meet with Prime Minister Netanyahu, were he to be in the neighborhood.

Plumb, again, no attack or animus from me to you. After all it's probably Romney's fault...[8D]

[8D] Is this Ryan in mufti? [8D]

 

[cyberdigger]

Hey Surf,

I'm not always on your page but this evening I want to thank you for this particular non-bottle contribution.. a major global war is happening, or beginning to happen.. or has been beginning more and more to begin to happen more and more.. meantime the once feared and respected citizens of the USA are getting soft, stupid, and lazy. Present company excluded, of course.. not their fault because they were born and raised in a welfare state. It's the same as communism but without the gulags and stuff. It removes the spirit and ambition, the hard work and sacrifice that builds character. As our buddies over in Muslim world are demonstrating: if you over-populate, under-educate, and give free rides to the people of a place, you will grow only zombies in that place.. !

 

[Plumbata]

Well done Surf, thanks for the current perspective. I really don't pay much attention to either Obama or Romney so neither potential influence is to blame for my ignorance. []

Appropriated resources include Gold, Opium/Heroin, lucrative resource-exploitation based contracts, and I suppose elements of their cultures and societies which have been "colonized" by western interests.

ORIGINAL: surfaceone
Here's a few Iraqi guys, looking none too bewildered. Scripted, supplied with props, and told what to do perhaps.

I suppose I was being a tad melodramatic, but may I refer to this comment:

ORIGINAL: Plumbata
"Eye for an eye" is fine, but if you chop off their head instead, the hydra of discontent and righteous anger will sprout many new ones. It's a can of worms that will never be fully resolved in the manners thus far attempted.

I'd say that the current wave of discontent was triggered by overzealous, excessive, or culturally insensitive actions on our side (being "the west"). Not to say it is justified, certainly, but we aren't exactly blameless. Looks like we're stuck with the reinvigorated hydra whether we like it or not.

Hell, I bet it can all be traced back to 1948, or why not go back further to the British rule of Palestine and the Zionist Commission? The Jews boldly reasserting themselves in a Muslim-dominated arena was a bad idea to begin with (like setting up a colony of cats in a region controlled by wild dogs), and when the state was established the US and much of the west stood behind them. I doubt the Muslims would care much about the USA if we weren't politically married to Israel, but religious sentiment and politics are inseparable and a predominantly Christian nation will naturally view their monotheistic forebears with a sentimental fondness not exhibited towards those who adhere to the heretical younger religion of Islam. Having pretty much engineered/supplied their military, and having generally supported them and their Zionist conquests of additional Arab/Islamic territory over the years hasn't helped out our image in the poorly educated and easily indoctrinated Islamist regions. Ultimately, Israel and the USA have become the greatest threat to their religion and culture and they probably feel that the only way to preserve their way of life is to kill or be killed. Sure ain't a political historian but that's my view.

Many of us westerners are educated and hope that diplomatic resolution is possible, in addition to military force and violence if the former is not possible. The poor uneducated people of these regions don't know a thing about diplomacy; all they know is the pain and suffering that they themselves or those they identify with have endured as a result of what is perceived as US and Israeli meddling. The only thing they know how to do, indeed the only course of action that they can put their "faith" in involves violence and brutality as a response-in-kind. The fact that many of the disgruntled masses of Muslims are uneducated and ignorant of the ways of the world is immaterial. They think what we are doing is evil and wrong and what they are doing is good and right. We think that what they are doing is evil and wrong and what we are doing is good and right.

Two opposing views can't both occupy the space of "objective correctness" at the same time, so the only logical conclusion I can come up with is that both sides, in sum total, are wholly or partially incorrect. A real cluster##ck kind of situation we've got going on here.

 

[AntiqueMeds]

The guy is a civilian now, and can write whatever he wants.

not true. When you are granted a clearance you agree not to divulge information you are granted under that privalage until it is de-classified.
If I did it , I would be arrested in a minute. He gets special treatment because people are afraid there will be a backlash if the government goes after a perceived hero.
The seal organization is immensly unhappy with this person.
Legally the question is how far did he cross the line in what information he has exposed. That is for the CIA to decide.

 

[epackage]

ORIGINAL: Plumbata



A small handful of extremists kill 4,000 US Citizens in 2001?

I'm buying it Plumb, in Cairo alone there are 85 million people and only 1000 were at the US Embassy, it was excatly the same at all the other embassies. What we need are more Bible Thumpers running this country so we can get more and more involved in the Holy War the sand people have been fighting for thousands of years, that seems like a great idea...SMFH[:-]

Spreading democracy and imposing our beliefs on the rest of the world sure is fun...

 

[surfaceone]

in Cairo alone there are 85 million people and only 1000 were at the US Embassy,

Hey Jim,

Are you getting this geographical tidbit directly from Debbie Wasserman Schultz? I think there's a missing decimal point in there somewhere. Sure would hate to be the census taker in Cairo...

Spreading democracy and imposing our beliefs on the rest of the world sure is fun...

You gotta place credit for this latest bit of spreading & imposing squarely at the feet of that little ole Bible thumping President Obama.

Here he is with his former pastor, Rev. 'Thumper' Wright.

I'm not sure that "sand people" is an approved phrase in the State Department lexicon, either.