German Half post bottle?

[hartmans2]

Jim,
I wouldn't do anything without knowing for certain what I have.... [] I may just have to ship this to you so you can get that hands on! lol Like I've said before....I have NO bottle experience what so ever. I only know what little I do because of sites like this one. So Whomevers the owner of this site I want to say THANK YOU! Weather this is old or new I know I have learned quite a bit just from the research.
Thanks
Theresa

 

[surfaceone]

Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen, esprcially all you Jim's,

I was absent the week at school when they went over the whole German Half Post method. So I made s stop over at Bill Lindsey's and found this:

Half-post method: "A variation on the dip mold/pattern mold theme is a method of bottle production where the gather is slightly expanded then dipped again into the glass pot to apply a second layer of glass over the initial gather. This second layer of glass typically covered the base and body portions of the first gather ending on the upper shoulder. Postes was a French term for a gather of molten glass. Thus the term "half-post" for this method, though these bottles are well more that "half" covered by the second coating of glass (McKearin & Wilson 1978). The end point for this second layer of glass is indicated by a thickened ridge on the upper shoulder of the finished bottle. Click Pitkin shoulder to see a close-up picture (flask to the right) of this ridge which shows just below the bottom of the neck and just above the pattern mold ridges.

This method was used with regular shoulder height dip molds of various shapes and with pattern molds. Bottles produced by this method are often called "double-dipped" in collector jargon. Some early collectors incorrectly believed that the neck of these type bottles were "inserted" into the body of the bottle, a largely impossible feat. The term "inserted neck" still crops up occasionally however (McKearin & Wilson 1978). This production method is also often referred to as the "German half-post" method since it was believed to have originated in Germany (Munsey 1970).

Certain types of half-post produced bottles - like the "Pitkin" style flasks - were pattern molded after the application of the second layer of glass. The flask could be patterned once (like the nursing bottle pictured above left) or patterned twice giving a "broken swirl" appearance to the bottle, which can often resemble popcorn kernels. The forest green Pitkin style flask pictured to the right above was produced by the half-post method; note the horizontal ridge encircling the shoulder just below the neck. This flask is single patterned on the upper 40% of the body and double patterned on the lower 60% (click picture to enlarge). It was most likely made at a New England glassworks between 1780 and 1820 and would be referred as being "swirled to the right" (from the bottom of the body upwards) which is the most common direction for swirling on New England "Pitkins" (McKearin & Wilson 1978; Noordsy 2003). The light green "Pitkin" style flask pictured in the pattern mold section above is another example of a double patterned "broken swirl" flask from the same era. This is an unusual color for a New England style "Pitkin" as most were blown in darker shades of green and sometimes amber, e.g., olive green, olive amber (Noordsy 2003).

Not all Pitkin style flasks were made by the New England glass factories. Many were made by various glassworks a bit further to the west. The Pitkin style flask to the left was most likely produced at a Midwestern glass factory - Ohio or possibly western Pennsylvania (Pittsburgh) - during the first third of the 19th century. It's heritage is indicated by the brighter green color and the more circular shape of the bottle body. This flask was also twice pattern molded resulting in the "broken swirl" pattern (McKearin & Wilson 1978). Click Midwestern Pitkin close-up to view a close-up of this flask which distinctly shows the half-post "ridge" on the upper shoulder as well as the pattern mold ridges. This flask would be referred to as being "swirled to the left." Midwestern flasks were rarely if ever blown in olive-green or olive-amber and are most common in more vibrant greens, shades of amber, and aqua."

So what am I missing here? I was presuming that there was some sorta German secret handshake business in the back of this, but now seem to think this is an American thing. "Double dipping," is that an apt summation? Will someone take a moment to wise me up? Extra points for circles and arrows...

1967

 

[cyberdigger]

It's double dipped, and that's that.. so am I, BTW.. [>:]

 

[surfaceone]

Evening Sir Charles,

I know you have a depth of knowledge and a uniquely middle european sensibility... So was the "German" oar in this rowboat an German immigant to an early American glass works? Are there German Double Dippers in a German Historic Glass Haus? Was this ever done in contrasting colors? I'd like to see a Green double dipped in Amber. Would you have one-a-those up yer sleeve?

1970

 

[cyberdigger]

My middle european sensibility is telling me to get back to you on this, maybe next week.. [8|] If anyone else wants to try to explain how the H/P method works, please do tell.. I couldn't possibly be the only one who knows!!

 

[saratogadriver]

Muy interesante! I had not seen a reproed half post method bottle. I always figured it was too much work, and I don't think Clevenger made anything half post. I've seen some stuff at auction that I thought looked a bit suspect, but it's always sold as "continental, 1900 century". You don't have any pics of a known repro half post method, do you? As someone on here says, it's always school...

As to description of the half post method, the "double dip" that I see described in other posts is about my understanding of it, blow partly on one gather, than grab a bit more glass to finish it up. And yes, it is allegedly a gift from our German blowers. Remember that Baron Steigel's workers were mostly german imports, as was he himself...

The glass on this one doesn't look, from the pics, "old", like the one on American Bottle Auctions. But the form sure is right... Then again, those beautiful amethyst Steigel bottles don't look like "old" glass either, do they?

Jim G

ORIGINAL: botlguy

Theresa: I hate to be the bearer of bad news and always reluctant to burst ones bubble. But the truth is ALWAYS best. The problem with your pictures, I believe, is your light source. Flash is not the way to go. If you can back light through translucent glass or better yet sign grade acryilic with 5,000 K flourescent tubes or use bright cloudy sunlight from a side angle, that will give true(er) color. (All computer monitors see differently) However, I don't believe that will make the real difference.

There is just something not right about that piece even though it's quite similar to the auction photo. I know the auctioneer, Jeff Wichman, and he is quite knowledgeable about such items but he may also be led astray with the piece he is offering. I am not 100% convinced about that one either although it looks more authentic than yours. I would need to see both in person to be sure in my mind. As I said at the very first, I am simply giving my opinion based on limited information. Someone with some real expertise needs to view your bottle in person. Nothing substitutes for "hands on".

I used to have a German Half Post made contemorary item that I used for show purposes as a learning tool. The piece was made in Chechoslovakia (sp?) I think. I personally own a few "PITKIN" flasks made in the German Half Post style but they are of a much different form and really not good for comparison.

I sincerely hope I am wrong and that you find out it is an early, quality piece. IT COULD BE. I am just wanting you to make sure before you do anything with it. Find someone with experience in such items and try to get more than one hands on opinion. Good Luck

 

[kungfufighter]

Those who are interested can find a short discussion (and some pretty pictures!) of pattern molding and the German half-post techinique at the following address...

http://www.jeffnholantiquebottles.com/webpages/ChapterFour.html

 

[surfaceone]

Those who are interested can find a short discussion (and some pretty pictures!) of pattern molding and the German half-post techinique at the following address...

http://www.jeffnholantiquebottles.com/webpages/ChapterFour.html

Kudos unto you Jeff and Holly,

Thankyou for the magnificent examples and wonderful photographs!

I'm seeing great early Eastern and Midwestern Flasks. I'm feeling a lot of Delicious Double Dippers.

I'm confused as to Theresa's bottle. I do not see the double dippin component there. Am I missing something? I think I see that the neck portion seems to have somewhat "slumped" across the proad plain of the "Shoulders." Where is the German Half Post Method apparent on her bottle?

I also think of these

bottles when I think of Half Posting, but I do not see the apparency of the additional gather on this last one. Which was found here.

This is me, basking in my ignorance, and hoping for further instruction.

 

[hartmans2]

If I could find just one like this out there.......that was NEW I would believe it was. lol But I actually went on a shopping trip this weekend to see if I could find any bottles finished this way at all the local import stores. World Market etc....non of the bottles I found looked remotely like this one.

Is it totally unthinkable that this old with no wear? If you could see the ribbing down the sides of the bottle in person you would think it was much like the flasks in some of the photos of old bottles. I realize the color is not the "norm" either but I seen such a wide range in colors of greens....even a few examples with a brighter green. If I can count the ribs in the glass down the sides would that say anything to anyone about it possibly being older? hmmmm now I'm going to have to go see if I count them.

Another ? is do the bubles in the glass say anything or the specks of darker/ash? in it?

Trying to believe this is New but just not feeling it is.

Theresa

 

[kungfufighter]

I do not think of these bottles as "new" either Theresa but I have seen enough of them in the exact same form and construction technique (in an array of un-natural colors) to feel quite certain that they are not a 19th century bottle. With that said, bottles of this type are often sold at auction for good money when either the buyer or seller has not previously encountered a similar object. My best guess is that they came on the market in the 1970s or 1980s...