How old are you ????

[Maine Digger]

Ok, I'll bite, what organization do you write for, or do you free lance? Some of your observations and jargon are similar to material from Landmark Education's Forum, a series I attended several years ago. Some material that sifted down from the est movement in the sixties. Relationships, 'stories' vs. reality, 'rackets', choices vs. decisions........... Some of your observations regarding male/female behavior and interpersonal dynamics, sound suspiciously like material from Stearling Men's Weekends, any drum beating in the background? hmmmm[8|]

 

[Harry Pristis]

What an odd response from you, Norm.

I know what Landmark does. I have read about EST. I've never heard of Stearling Men's Weekends. Tell us about them. It sounds gay.

I much prefer to have my psychology directly from the researcher, rather than from highly derivitive sources like Landmark or Men's Weekends.

I credited the material about gender-differences in conversation. Deborah Tannen, an academic researcher, wrote a popular book entitled: YOU JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND: Women and Men in Conversation. I am sure you can still buy it.

"Relationships, 'stories' vs. reality, 'rackets', choices vs. decisions...." These are not my words, Norm. I can't imagine what you think you read. We were talking about sharing personal details on the Internet.

--------------Harry Pristis

 

[deepwoods]

Harry, Im guessing the 'mens weekend' thing is related to the Robert Bly-'Iron John', men getting back to thier primal roots movement-Jung and all that..

 

[drjhostetters]

I'm not sure..but after trying to decipher Harry and Norm's chat responses I think this thread should have been posted in "unexpected discoveries"....tune in next week to see if John and Mary run away to Acupulco...[8D]

[8|] The Doctor...

 

[bigkitty53]

As always,Harry found an interesting article to further fuel a thread,don't know how you do it Harry! -----bigkitty53

"I thought I might let that slide, but I think it's better to tell you up front that Harry doesn't simply find interesting articles, Harry writes them." ---Harry Pristis

Harry,That wasn't a dig at you!
Considering the range to topics you've written about that I've seen,I'd say you're the quintssencial Renaissance man.Wouldn't suprise me if you're also a concert violinist.

Keep up the good work Harry!

KAT

 

[Maine Digger]

Hi Harry....If you're familar with Landmark you obviously are aware of 'rackets' etc. And as such, I am inclined to believe you've been running a beauty; but nevertheless it has been interesting.and entertaining. "Rackets' to the uninitiated, is not a purjorative term!, it's a 'Landmarkism' in reference to how we present ourselves to others. I brought it up due to the curious manner that this thread continued to unfold[] As far as Stearling Men's Weekends, I've never attended, just had very inlightening, interesting conversation with individuals who did. Deepwoods was right on the money. I personally believe it is a dangerous organization, as I am aware of emotional trauma inflicted on some who participated. It is not for those who may have a timid or damaged psyche. My background is physical and biological sciences, as far as social sciences, I completed courses for accreditation in counseling, and at one time studied for full time ministry. Theren I've revealed everything to all....Alas, Harry, your thoughts are not my thoughts, but it does make for some interesting conversations![] But we really should try to stay focused on the bottles, don't you agree?[]

 

[Harry Pristis]

Norm...

One of the things you would have had to learn to be a successful counselor is to listen carefully (in this case, read carefully).

I wrote that "I know what Landmark does," not that I am familiar with the Landmark curriculum.

Landmark is profit-oriented, pyramid sales scheme where the product is "feel good." The scheme exploits the weak-minded who need this sort of "guidance." I see that you are an adept in this matter -- were you the exploiter or the exploitee?

To bring this back to the subject of the thread, it should be noted that all these remarks - the back-hand compliments, the patronizing, the clash of views, the assertion of credentials - is all "report talk." It is what men are trained to do from an early age.

For most men, talk is primarily a means to preserve independence and negotiate and maintain status in a hierarchical social order. This is done by exhibiting knowledge and skill, and by holding center stage through verbal performance

Notice that the women here don't want any part of this contention; that's their training.

You'll have to read Debra Tannen's 1990 book to see how this struggle is (ideally) worked out between the participants. But, it does work itself out.

--------------Harry Pristis

 

[Maine Digger]

Harry, Unless we have participated in an event, or witnessed something firsthand, does on really 'KNOW' it? Otherwise the information is second hand, based upon others interpretations, no? Regarding the Forum, I did witness some real positive results especially in regard to shattered relationships; although why it takes $700 and 30 hours of programming to have the courage to say "I'm sorry, can you forgive me' still astounds me.[8|] I wouldn't go as far as calling it a scheme, I think they actually believe what they're presenting. As far as weak-minded, the attendees in my group were on the other end of the scale; Doctors, professors, mostly professional people. The presenter was a former cardiac surgon (Joe DiMaggio, honest that's his real name[]), who gave up his practice to do Landmark full time. That being said, you are correct in that they are an 'For Profit" organization, and do encouraged attendees to 'continue the work' in continuing $500 sessions. I confess I was among the 'exploited', thus I remain vigilant to psycho-babble and the such. The management team where I worked at the time was required to read The Last Word On Power, by Tracy Goss (1995) and attend weekly 2 hr meetings to discuss how we would apply the work to 'our beings'. We were required to substantiate that we were making efforts towards 'reinventing ourselves and our management styles'. You know, paradigm shifts, confession of shortcomings, fears blah blah blah. I soon found myself attending the $700 weekend Landmark forum in Boston that bordered on cult-like fanaticism by some of its devotees. Regarding 'listening' I agree it is essential in counseling, almost as important as is the skill of hearing what one is saying. I think we have (you and I) have been listening, I'm not certain we have always heard. I have offered twice now to let this issue go, and return to the friendly confines of bottle-talk, but you draw me back in with you closing volleys! In the spirit of openmindness I will read Debra's book; and in return ask you to consider the possibilty that opposing points of view do not necessarily make the other wrong, or right for that matter. If you wish to continue this dialog, why don't we do it in the confines of PMs? I'm not sure the rest of the forum members have enjoyed this sparring. And Roger's blood pressure is going up with every post[]

 

[Flaschenjager]

If you wish to continue this dialog, why don't we do it in the confines of PMs? I'm not sure the rest of the forum members have enjoyed this sparring. And Roger's blood pressure is going up with every post

Norm, I couldn't agree more and don't take this the wrong way, but I would think that many who visit here are for the bottle and related talk. This has destroyed an innocent thread among the users here and probably left question marks dancing around several of their heads. PMs are exactly for this type of discussion, among other things.

---Here's my 2 cents about all this and this is only a joke or so called funny. Quoting from the infamous "Jerry Springer Show" :

Go to OPRAH !!!

 

[deepwoods]

Has anyone read Spenglers "Decline of the West" ? If I may expand...LOL Shall we return to the topic at hand? I need to go diggin.