IN SEARCH OF / NON-ABM / FANCY-IMAGE / CROWN SODA BOTTLES

[T D]

[/quote]

 

[OsiaBoyce]

ORIGINAL: celerycola

Bob,

Why would I feel ridiculed or discredited? I base my comments on forty-five years of collecting and researching soda bottles and their history. I have been an active member of bottle clubs from New York to California and have probably attended five hundred bottle shows in that time. I assure you that I have looked at every one of the hundreds of soda bottles at each show, totaling many thousands in the time I've been collecting. I've published six books based on my research and contributed to a dozen or more. I have read and re-read the hundred plus books on my shelf concerning soft drink bottles and their history. A google search is no substitute for getting out to bottle shows and reading the substantial amount of published research available. If your only sources are online you can only view the tip of the iceberg of what information is available.

You didn't acknowledge my post stating the 1906 date for the hobbleskirt Bludwine bottle. Instead you came up with a different date without identifying what bottle you dated to that year, so I asked for more information. Of the three bottles I referenced, two(Bludwine and Gay-Ola) were considered to have sufficient DECOrative elements to receive protection under Federal Patent Laws for their design. If the United States Government declares a bottle to be DECOrative then that is good enough for me. The third bottle, the Kola-Mint, has raised and scalloped panels, horizontal lines, high relief Mint Leaf, and script trademark covering ninety per cent of the bottle. If that is not sufficient to convince you then you should get a copy of the Deco Soda Bottles book where all three are listed. I know Brian applied his years of experience collecting DECOrative soda bottle to writing his book. Until someone else produces a more comprehensive tome on DECOrative sodas it looks like Brians book is the authority.

You may have noticed I refer to DECOrative soda bottles rather than Art Deco. I haven't taken enough art history courses to warrant a degree in the subject but I do have to agree with the Sage of Chinquapin Falls who kindly reminds us that Art Deco began in the 1920's, years after DECOrative soda bottles appeared. To honestly confuse the two, or deliberately combine them, to the horror of Art History Professors everywhere, is beyond oversimplifying, it is plain wrong.

I think it is fair for everyone to evaluate a bottle for themselves whether it qualifies as DECOrative or not. Just as we all choose what criteria we use in deciding what to collect. Since a majority of collectors are not joining us here online whatever rules are legislated will carry no weight with collectors at large.

I apologize for my delayed response: I was attending bottle shows in New Hampshire and Alabama, visiting bottle collecting friends and hunting bottles in twelve states.

ORIGINAL: SODAPOPBOB

Dennis:

Despite how it might look, please know that I am not trying to ridicule or discredit you, and I apologize if it seems that way. Its just that you had me confused earlier and I thought I would post some pictures and information regarding the three bottles you recently mentioned. I will let individual members decide for themselves whether they agree or disagree with your descriptions. As for myself, I honestly do not feel that any of the three bottles falls into the category of what I would call a true deco soda bottle. However, I do agree the bottles are forerunners of the deco style and definitely had an influence on the deco designs. So please know that I appreciate and respect your contributions and will use them to broaden my research attempts. At the same time I hope you will respect my contributions as well. As it stands now, I plan to continue my research regarding ...

1. Circa / Pre-ABM / BIM / Hand-blown / Tooled / Crown / Deco-style Soda Bottles. (If they exist) ???

And ...

2. When and what might have influenced the transition from common, straight-sided soda bottles to the more elaborately designed bottles that became extremely popular in the 1920s.

Thanks to everyone who have participated in and/or are following this thread with interest.

Respectfully,

Bob

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl5dZxA-rZY

I'm stunned, we are in the presence of greatness. Where as Gahndi said "...............our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world......." I see where Bob is changing long standing definitions. Then I guess I am reminded of what Humpty Dumpty said in Lewis Carrols 'Through The Looking Glass', which is, "When I use a word it means what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less."

Has anyone let Brian Wade in on this change? When he wrote the book 'Deco Soda Bottles' and included on page -2- the following: 'A deco soda bottle is defined here as "a fancy embossed crowntop soda bottle from the 1920s and 30s"..................................popularity during theArt Deco peroid and their frequent use of Art Deco design features.'

He continues at the bottom of said page '...............a deco bottle is NOT NESSARILY Art Deco in design.'

Now I'm being led to belive that the excavation of King Tuts tomb gave way to the Art Deco movement or was at least the basis of bottle designs of the 20s & 30s.

Like I said, I'm stunned.....................more than words can describe.

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

Celerycola ~

Thank you for clarifying your position when you said ...

"Any bottle with DECOrative elements is a DECO bottle."

Even though I do not agree with your position, (which I feel is too broad and encompassing) I acknowledge and respect it. As for my view on the subject, I honestly feel the term Deco is more specifically connected with the 1920s and 1930s than it is to anything related to the teens or pre-teens. To say that any decorative bottle is a deco bottle would have to include the swirl-embossed bottle pictured below, and that particular bottle doesn't even have a crown closure.

I never said every soda bottle of the 1920s-30s was Egyptian influenced, but I did say that "many" of them were. I also said that had there been no discovery of King Tut's tomb in 1922 that the so called Art Deco movement in the United States, as well as the influence it had on Deco soda bottles, would not have occurred, at least not as we know it today. I still believe this wholeheartedly!

I also feel any book devoted to the study of Deco soda bottles that does not include at least a cursory examination of the Egyptian influence on the bottles of that era is an incomplete work that is missing an essential aspect as to what some of the major influences were.

~ * ~

T D ~

As for the title and subject matter of this thread, among other things, on page one I said ...

"I am seeking help to find examples of circa 1900 to circa 1910 Non-ABM Crown soda bottles that have ...

1. Fancy embossing (diamond-cut, etc) like the later (1920s) deco/designer bottles.
2. An embossed pictorial image like some of the earlier Hutch's."

Although I might not have been 100% specific at the time as to my intentions for this thread, I did say I was interested in finding soda bottles like the 1920s deco soda bottles. I agree this might not have been clear to everyone but it was clear to me even if I failed to elaborate on it. Plus, we all know that some threads, especially multi-paged threads, have a way of starting out on one subject and then developing into something more encompassing. Personally I see no harm in transitional research with it's findings and subsequent discussions just as long as the end result is an informative one which broadens our knowledge of the entire soda bottle spectrum.

~ * ~

Osia ~

Can you imagine what the reaction would be if I listed the bottle pictured below on eBay and described it as a late 1800s Deco soda bottle? I can't speak for others but I really don't think that dog would hunt. If you choose to believe that any decorative bottle is a Deco bottle, that's your prerogative. As for myself, I'm sticking with the general dictionary definition ...

DEC·o

Of, pertaining to, or suggestive of art deco design:

Noun
A style of design that was popular in the 1920s and 1930s; marked by stylized forms and geometric designs adapted to mass production.

WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.

~ * ~


If any and all decorated bottles are Deco bottles, then I suppose that makes these "ornamental" bottles from 1902-1903 and 1910-1911 Deco bottles as well ...

1902-1903

https://www.google.com/patents?id=wV9wAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

1910-1911

https://www.google.com/patents?id=FrN9AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

~ * ~

I'm not trying to rewrite history, I'm just trying to clarify a few things and add to it for the benefit of all bottle collectors. I encourage others to do their own research and reach their own conclusions and not rely on every opinion presented here.

Respectfully,

Bob

~ * ~

Accurate or inaccurate?

Description:

Late 1800s Deco Soda Bottle

(I say inaccurate!)

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

For those interested in doing their own research regarding the various influences on Art Deco and Deco, here's another person's view to help get you started ...

~ * ~

Please click and read pages 1 through 6

http://architecture.about.com/od/artdeco/ss/artdeco.htm

From Page 1 ...

"But most of all, Art Deco expressed excitement over a stunning archeological find in Egypt."

From Page 3 ...

"Ancient Egyptian art told stories. Highly stylized icons had symbolic meanings."

"Art Deco architects often lavished their buildings with symbolic images."

From Page 4 ...

"The Terra-cotta facing and the strong vertical bands are typical Art Deco features borrowed from antiquity. Other characteristics of the style include zigzag designs, echoing patterns and vivid colors that would delight the slumbering Egyptian king."

From Page 5 ...

"When Howard Carter opened the tomb of the ancient Egyptian King Tutankhamen, the world was dazzled by the brilliance of the treasure."

"But, Art Deco design is about more than color and ornamental patterns. The very shape of these buildings expresses a fascination for orderly forms and primitive architecture. The early Art Deco skyscrapers suggest Egyptian or Assyrian pyramids with terraced steps rising to the top. "

From Page 6 ...

"Skyscrapers built during the 1920s and early 1930s may not have the brilliant colors or zigzag designs we associate with the Art Deco style. However, these buildings often took on a distinctive Art Deco shape: The ziggurat.
A ziggurat is a terraced pyramid with each story smaller than the one below it. Art Deco skyscrapers may have complex groupings of rectangles or trapezoids. Sometimes two contrasting materials are used to create subtle bands of color, a strong sense of line, or the illusion of pillars. The logical progression of steps and the rhythmical repetition of shapes suggest ancient architecture, yet also celebrate a new, technological era.

Art Deco is an eclectic style -- a conglomeration of influences from many cultures and historic periods. It's easy to overlook the Egyptian elements in the design of a posh theater or a streamlined diner. But the tomblike shape of twentieth century "ziggurats" make it clear that the world was in a tizzy over King Tut."

~ * ~

Meet Jackie Craven

http://architecture.about.com/bio/Jackie-Craven-3819.htm

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

P.S.

I have nothing further to add to this thread. I'm sure everyone knows by now where I stand.

Thanks again to everyone for your interest and participation.

Sodabottlebob

 

[epackage]

ORIGINAL: SODAPOPBOB

For those interested in doing their own research regarding the various influences on Art Deco and Deco, here's another person's view to help get you started ...

~ * ~

Please click and read pages 1 through 6

http://architecture.about.com/od/artdeco/ss/artdeco.htm

From Page 1 ...

"But most of all, Art Deco expressed excitement over a stunning archeological find in Egypt."

From Page 3 ...

"Ancient Egyptian art told stories. Highly stylized icons had symbolic meanings."

"Art Deco architects often lavished their buildings with symbolic images."

From Page 4 ...

"The Terra-cotta facing and the strong vertical bands are typical Art Deco features borrowed from antiquity. Other characteristics of the style include zigzag designs, echoing patterns and vivid colors that would delight the slumbering Egyptian king."

From Page 5 ...

"When Howard Carter opened the tomb of the ancient Egyptian King Tutankhamen, the world was dazzled by the brilliance of the treasure."

"But, Art Deco design is about more than color and ornamental patterns. The very shape of these buildings expresses a fascination for orderly forms and primitive architecture. The early Art Deco skyscrapers suggest Egyptian or Assyrian pyramids with terraced steps rising to the top. "

From Page 6 ...

"Skyscrapers built during the 1920s and early 1930s may not have the brilliant colors or zigzag designs we associate with the Art Deco style. However, these buildings often took on a distinctive Art Deco shape: The ziggurat.
A ziggurat is a terraced pyramid with each story smaller than the one below it. Art Deco skyscrapers may have complex groupings of rectangles or trapezoids. Sometimes two contrasting materials are used to create subtle bands of color, a strong sense of line, or the illusion of pillars. The logical progression of steps and the rhythmical repetition of shapes suggest ancient architecture, yet also celebrate a new, technological era.

Art Deco is an eclectic style -- a conglomeration of influences from many cultures and historic periods. It's easy to overlook the Egyptian elements in the design of a posh theater or a streamlined diner. But the tomblike shape of twentieth century "ziggurats" make it clear that the world was in a tizzy over King Tut."

~ * ~

Meet Jackie Craven

http://architecture.about.com/bio/Jackie-Craven-3819.htm

Some interesting stuff in this post Bob, I had never considered the influence and I want to tell you I'm impressed by the research you did here. I would consider the George Eagle a 'Geometric' design and not a Deco bottle.

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

Jim / epackage:

Thanks for the compliment - I'm glad you found this thread interesting. As for the Egyptian influence on Art Deco I keep referring to, I'm not alone in this respect and there are many others who feel the same way, some of which can be reviewed by accessing the links below. I thought it might also interest you to spotlight the bottle patent pictured below that was patented in 1925 by Jerome P. Curran. If you open the link to the patent you will discover that Curran was an assignor to The American Bottle Company of Toledo, Ohio. The interesting thing about this is that Paul A. Ginter, (who was the designer of the nine bottle patents I posted links to on page 4, post #69) was also an assignor to The American Bottle Company. It's starting to look as if The American Bottle Company was a major contributor to Egyptian influenced Deco soda bottles of the 1920s. Compare some of the Egyptian motifs on the book cover (image to follow on next page) to some of the patterns on Curran's bottle patent.

Thanks again for helping to put me in contact with Kevin. I can't wait to receive the pyramid bottle and might even start collecting Egyptian influenced Deco's.

For a guy who stated earlier that he didn't have anything more to contribute to this discussion, I sure said a mouthful! Oh well, I guess that's just my nature. []

Bob

~ * ~

[ Pictured below ]

Bottle Patent 66,789
J.P. Curran ~ Assignor to the American Bottle Company of Toledo, Ohio
Filed January 1925
Patented March 1925

https://www.google.com/patents/USD66789?pg=PA1&dq=66,789+bottle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hwcBUr_7HYnCywGs8IGYDg&ved=0CEkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=66%2C789%20bottle&f=false

American Bottle Company:

http://www.glassbottlemarks.com/bottlemarks/

A.B.CO ... American Bottle Company (1905-1929). Chicago, Illinois (office – 1905-1916); Toledo, Ohio (office – 1916-1929). Glass plants were located at Streator, Illinois; Newark, Ohio; Belleville, Illinois; Massillon, Ohio & Wooster, Ohio. The American Bottle Company was purchased by Owens Bottle Machine Company in 1916 (with some of the plants being closed soon afterwards) but the Streator and Newark plants continued to operate under the American Bottle Co. Name until 1929, when they became part of the merger that resulted in Owens-Illinois Glass Company. (For Streator and Newark plant marks from 1916 to 1929, see “17N†and “16S†entries). Most, if not all, of the “ABâ€, “AB CO.†and “A.B.CO.†marked bottles are believed to date between 1905 and 1916. However, it is possible that some bottles with these markings might date between 1916 and 1929, but, if so, could only have been made at either the Streator or Newark plants.

~ * ~

"Egyptian style was a major influence on Art Deco ..."

http://books.google.com/books?id=0H3v0nPk1V4C&pg=PA136&dq=egyptian+art+deco&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-_0AUrXeH6qQyQHV44CwBw&ved=0CF8Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=egyptian%20art%20deco&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Cpas7sb04VwC&pg=PA29&dq=egyptian+art+deco&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-_0AUrXeH6qQyQHV44CwBw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=egyptian%20art%20deco&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=mWkHtxMt8s0C&pg=PA134&dq=egyptian+art+deco&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-_0AUrXeH6qQyQHV44CwBw&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=egyptian%20art%20deco&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=wRmaUEb1nzgC&pg=PA5&dq=egyptian+art+deco&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-_0AUrXeH6qQyQHV44CwBw&ved=0CE8Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=egyptian%20art%20deco&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=4lFgTnlx1iIC&pg=PA68&dq=egyptian+art+deco&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3gABUpmdJIOHygGaxYDABQ&ved=0CEwQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=egyptian%20art%20deco&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=LpQBdsH12acC&pg=PA17&dq=egyptian+art+deco&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WgEBUufCBZCgyAGvkYGQAw&ved=0CEwQ6AEwBjgU#v=onepage&q=egyptian%20art%20deco&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Zfw4HQTG3RYC&pg=PA127&dq=egyptian+art+deco&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WgEBUufCBZCgyAGvkYGQAw&ved=0CF0Q6AEwCTgU#v=onepage&q=egyptian%20art%20deco&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=N62mWymH8v4C&pg=PT106&dq=egyptian+art+deco&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5gIBUpCYCO-CyAGZ-YCgDQ&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAjge#v=onepage&q=egyptian%20art%20deco&f=false

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

Book:

Dover Publications ~ 2012

http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/Egyptian-Motifs-Art-Deco-Style-Dover-Publications-Inc/9780486484464

 

[Plumbata]

Interesting stuff.

There is no doubt that Egyptian design motifs played an important role in the development of the Art Deco aesthetic, but it must be remembered that from the 1890s-1920s there was a pervasive interest among us westerners with the "orient" in general; including Egypt, the Middle East, Asia, and ancient peoples who formerly inhabited such areas. One sees artistic fusions of distinct styles being concocted and appreciated all throughout this time, sometimes haphazard jumbles of distinct styles, such as carved tables with Chinese dragons, Japanese Chrysanthemums, and a sprinkling of other southeast Asian motifs which if not accurately assembled, at least supplied a consumer demand at the time. "Camel" cigarettes, for example, came out in 1913, and their Egyptian influence is obvious even without the wealth of additional artistic source material brought to light a decade later by professional grave robbers. Even in the 1850s, calling one's patent meds "Egyptian" or "Arabian" liniments was considered a solid advertising ploy, so exposure to and interest in "the orient" has been around for quite some time.

Also, one cannot forget the ancient Greek "Geometric" period, which showcases many design elements which I consider to be directly adopted by the Art Deco movement. Certainly many other cultures contributed to the Deco "toolbox" as well.

Anyway, I have this bottle to submit for consideration.

It is BIM, it is not straight-sided; the "waist" of the bottle, directly above the ribbed and embossed base section, is palpably narrower than the shoulder area. Also note the ribbing of the base and how it expands and is widest at the base/bottom. Not sure if this is of any help, but in the hand it feels like a contour coke, just with more of an attenuated/subdued curvy profile. Certainly not a classically "deco" bottle but it sure isn't like it's typical straight-sided contemporaries either.

 

[Bass Assassin]

SODAPOPBOB, thanks for the thread and some interesting reading material.
Plumbata, I have never seen a bottle like you posted and must admit i do like it. It is very "different" from other coca cola bottles. With coca cola in script, would that mean that it did in fact contain coca cola?