Pontiled Black Glass

[tigue710]

They are both most certainly pontiled, the first being a really nice New England whiskey cylinder... Looks like a CT piece to me but that is speculation... great bottle

 

[Asterx]

Thank you Matt, I appreciate you chiming in on this one as I know your fondness for cylinders. Something about it made me think it may be american as opposed to english. I suppose it would be the form of the bottle for one, since it seems to be a fairly classic american shape, being thinner in proportion to english whiskeys/rums. The look of the tapered double lip also gives me that "US" feel. I'd be curious what about it rings a Connecticut bell with you. Being a Connecticuter myself, it would be great to think of it as having its roots here. It was purchased originally by the collector in CT but that is far from telling of course.

For a such a large scar and with certain characteristics, would you also think sand/sticky ball pontiled on both?

Again, thanks everyone for your input!

 

[deepbluedigger]

The three dots across the base of the first one is identical to the makers mark of the Candlish glassworks in the north of England (http://finbotclub.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/candlish-bottle-works-east-durham-uk.html). Everything else about the bottle looks as though it could be British, too.

 

[Asterx]

Interesting, Thanks Jerry. I checked out the link but didn't see any bottle pics. Neat history though. Do you happen to have or know where a picture of this maker's mark is?

The lip is different to me than most english black glass I have seen, although I am far from being knowledgeable on this topic. The slant and well defined edges of the collar remind me of american glass as opposed to the second bottle that looks distinctly british (to me)... this may just be a coincidence or my memory not serving. []

Fantastic website by the way (diggersdiary.co.uk). I've visited it several times in the past but didn't know who to attribute it to!

 

[tigue710]

ORIGINAL: deepbluedigger

The three dots across the base of the first one is identical to the makers mark of the Candlish glassworks in the north of England (http://finbotclub.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/candlish-bottle-works-east-durham-uk.html). Everything else about the bottle looks as though it could be British, too.

Jerry, I'd really like to see some examples of bottles from this works if you could direct me to the right place or post some.

 

[tigue710]

One of the biggest differences I've found with American cylinders compared to English examples it the flat ring around the base. Now this isnt always true, but American made cylinders and master inks blown in three piece molds will have a flat circular base with a slight kick up or concave center. The English cylinders immediately slope inward to a point, like a cone or funnel with no hole in the bottom. There is an easy comparison in the pictures you have posted of the two bases above showing the difference.

The lip is also a give away for me, but a I can not explain it well, its just something you tend to pick up after a while.

The cylinder I believe to be a CT piece is what is generally refereed to as a New England cylinder, but I think they were likely made in New York and other eastern glass houses. Its well known that New England, and Stoddard especially produces tons of them. What makes me think its a CT piece is the three mold vents, which are very similar to the mold vents on the base of one of the marked Willington cylinders.

This is of course a different mold, and probably 10 - 20 years later, but the use of the mold vents could indicate the mold was made and used in the same place as its not a common method of venting.

Of course all any of this means is that it is possible it was made in CT... not definitive...

The first bottle I would call a sand pontil, the second a sticky ball... There are differences here in the process, but as of yet they are ill defined and little is known besides conjecture as to how they were produced...

 

[Asterx]

Excellent info and comparisons Matt. I thank you. I had never made that connection with the ring around the edge of the base, thats a nice observation.

Nice bottle and picture too. I love the base embossed cylinders, the Willingtons and Ellenvilles. Great stuff.

 

[Asterx]

The first bottle I would call a sand pontil, the second a sticky ball... There are differences here in the process, but as of yet they are ill defined and little is known besides conjecture as to how they were produced...

Thats interesting about the sand vs. sticky ball pontils. My only knowledge of these (apparently) two different types is from the SHA website in which it is explained that the two types are rather two different terms for the same process. But as is expected and you explained, there is little known of the details.

How would you differentiate the differences in appearance between the two, and what are the differences in process that you know of?

Thanks

 

[tigue710]

The biggest difference I've been able to discern is that a Sticky ball pontil has a smeared, or smudged look, like it was pressed flat, but still with roughness through out or in a ring around the exterior of the mark while a sand pontil has little rough chips of broken glass, that do no seem smoothed over or smudged at all. More often then not a sand pontil will have just a ring of rough shards rather then the whole area with-in the ring having rough spots and shards... here it gets tricky because sometimes the sand pontil covers the whole area with rough shards with-in the outer ring of the mark, or the center will look slightly smothered. This seems to indicate three or four separate although very similar ways of empontiling the bottle, or possible just different techniques created by different hands?

I'm possibly looking to far into it, but the difference warrants exploration to me

 

[Asterx]

a Sticky ball pontil has a smeared, or smudged look, like it was pressed flat, but still with roughness through out or in a ring around the exterior of the mark

Your description of the sticky ball makes be think all the kick-up black glass ales that have an interesting base, sometimes with a bluish case in areas (SHA site attributes this to using a different rod than it was blown with). Smooth in the center around the kickup and with a very fine rough to the touch ring. I know there are differing opinions on the pontils on these. Here is a picture I found searching ABN compliments of Staunton Dan