Vernors Ginger Ale 150th B-Day

[SODABOB]

P.S.

To all who read this:

What is your interpretation of ...

​"... continuing until he embarked ..."

 

[VernorsGuy]

Bob-

If you can't believe a 1919 or later article when it says Vernor's started in 1866, you can't believe it when it says it didn't. We're looking for proof from the late 1860's, not from the 20th century. So, I'll attach the same doubt to the 1919 article.

Everyone-

Look at the attached photo from ebay. The company is W.H. Prittie. In 1878 he dissolved his partnership with another druggist and set out on his own. (Sounds kind of like the thing to do back then!) In this ad he's serving ginger ale out of a siphon. His address is 131 and 133 Woodward. So, he's about halfway between Vernor's Pharmacy and the river. Must be a big enough place taking up two storefronts. Looks like he manufactures everything you need to bottle ginger ale in siphons, too.

He retired in 1887. He died in 1907 in California. Apparently he moved out of Detroit due to the murder of his store clerk.

It's possible Vernor just stayed "bottling" in siphons until those turn-of-the-century glass bottles. The word "bottling" is just a historical perspective. A siphon is certainly a bottle. It also makes sense that if the only space Vernor had was the ground floor of his new place at 33 Woodward in 1896 he probably didn't have enough space for a real bottling machine. The 1900's postcard makes it look like most of the space was for soda fountain customers.

 

[SODABOB]

I'll have some more comments to share later, but for now want to re-post this other article from 1919 that followed the other one six months later in July of 1919.

 

[SODABOB]

Bob-

We're looking for proof from the late 1860's, not from the 20th century.

Keith

I concur!

That's what I've been hoping someone would say since this discussion started several months ago. Please don't think ill of me for asking, but ...

1. Exactly where did you come up with the information for your 2008 book that, for the most part, seems to support the 1866 origin?

Especially where you said ...

2. "Over 140 years ago, James Vernor served the first glass of Vernor's in his pharmacy at 235 Woodward Avenue in Detroit."

And go on to say ...

3. "There are conflicting stories ..."

4. "So he opened a soda fountain within his drugstore."

5. "Vernor's Ginger Ale still originated in 1866 but probably was not perfected until about 1870."

Is that information, and similar statements, from time-period (late 1860s) publications? If not, then where did come up with it?

Footnote:

Please know I am not trying to offend anyone, especially you! I'm just genuinely curious where you and others, such as Lawrence L. Rouch's 2003 book, "The Vernor's Story ~ from Gnomes to Now" got the information for your books?

Respectfully,

Bob



By the way, if you click on the little blue arrows at the top of transferred quotes, it will immediately take you to the page and post where the quote originated.







I'm not familiar with this book/magazine other than it was published in 1966

 

[VernorsGuy]

Let me clarify a few things before I answer those questions:
- I'm enjoying this discussion and am not offended at all by the questions. This has been great fun.
- I never questioned the 1866 origin date of Vernor's Ginger Ale. My book only questions whether the first extract was made before or after the Civil War. I've always been okay with Vernor messing with the formula and that it wasn't instantly perfect.
- I have seen more historical resources during this blog discussion than I ever did while writing the book.
- They might have come in handy! I've learned some amazing details about James Vernor in the last couple months. But, my 1866 start date opinion hasn't changed. (I believe Vernor's Ginger Ale started in 1866.)
- I'm more comfortable with assumptions than Bob and I've seen enough evidence here to believe that Vernor & L'Hommedieu operated a soda fountain. The recipe book also leads me to believe that their soda fountain was just like every soda fountain serving many different flavors. One of them was ginger ale.
- Vernor was just trying to make a buck. If his Pick Cigars had been a bigger hit, he would have been known for that. Somehow, of all the things he made and sold, ginger ale was the one where he made his fortune.

Now the answers:
1. I got all my information from Vernor's history from a time period we now refer to as BSB. (Before Soda Bob)
2. "Over 140 years ago" in 2008 was 1866. Consistent with BSB Vernor's history.
3. Conflicting stories about if the extract was made before or after the war.
4. I still believe he had a soda fountain in 1866. Just because we don't see ads right away doesn't mean anything. We don't see Vernor's Laxative ads either.
5. Interviews with Vernor Davis leaned to the theory that the first extract was after the war and he worked on it for a few years.

As for my quote "We're looking for proof from the late 1860's, not from the 20th century."

That simply means you can't have it both ways. On one hand, we've heard you can't use an article from the 1920's that says Vernor's started in 1866 as proof that it did because it's not a source in the right time period. If you buy that argument, you also can't use a 1919 article that portrays a non-1866 start date as proof of anything.

The bottom line is, we have no proof either way.

Now, there's no need to repost all the articles that can prove the 1880's. That only proves the 1880's, it doesn't disprove 1866.

 

[Canadacan]

P.S.

To all who read this:

What is your interpretation of ...

​"... continuing until he embarked ..."

Simply means when he went full time just into the Ginger ale business...?...

 

[VernorsGuy]

P.S.

To all who read this:

What is your interpretation of ...

​"... continuing until he embarked ..."

The previous part of that sentence confirms the meaning of this quote:"entered into the retail drug business in partnership with Charles L'Hommedieu buying the latter's interest and continuing until he embarked...." I'm with Canadacan. Vernor continued the retail drug business until he embarked on ginger ale full time.

 

[iggyworf]

The previous part of that sentence confirms the meaning of this quote:"entered into the retail drug business in partnership with Charles L'Hommedieu buying the latter's interest and continuing until he embarked...." I'm with Canadacan. Vernor continued the retail drug business until he embarked on ginger ale full time.

I also agree with this statement.

 

[SODABOB]

I'm having major computer problems and it took me two days to get online and post this. It could crash again any second. I'll be back if/when possible. So, if I don't reply on a timely basis, you'll know why.

In the meantime ...

All things considered / Based on current evidence ...

Because we have no time-period (1860s-70s) documentation to support that Vernor's Ginger Ale existed before 1880-1884, I am leaning toward the possibility that ...

Hires Root Beer might be the oldest continuously produced soda pop in the United States ...

1876

(Stay tuned for a new thread coming soon)

Recently acquired book ~ 128 Pages

(Only known example that I'm aware of)



Pre Crown Finish Bottles



The Crown Finish/Closure/Sealing Device was Patented by William Painter in 1892



Earliest confirmed ad I'm aware of that depicts a Crown Finish Hires Root Beer bottle ...

Life Magazine ~ 1897





Possible 1897 Bottle



(To be continued in my new thread)

 

[SODABOB]

P.S.

Because I still want to give away a free ACL Book ...

The first person that can find and post confirmation of another 1885 Hires Diary (other than the example I recently purchased on eBay) will receive the free ACL Book. Confirmation for another 1885 Hires Diary needs to be unquestionable. If you already acquired one of the ACL Books from me, then I'll send you another one that you can keep or do with as you please.

Signed,

Sodabob